Ben Swire | Workplace Culture Expert of Choice for Google, Meta, Netflix, Pixar, Salesforce, Citibank, American Express, Spotify, The Mayor Clinic, Pixar, etc. Shares How to Create Healthy & Productive Workplace Cultures

Audio Transcription

Transcribed with Cockatoo

(Speaker 4)
Some shows don’t need a celebrity narrator to introduce the show, but this show does. In a world filled with endless opportunities, why would two men who have built 13 multi -million dollar businesses altruistically invest five hours per day to teach you the best practice business systems and moves that you can use? Because they believe in you, and they have a lot of time on their hands. They started from the bottom, now they’re here. It’s The Thrive Time Show, starring the former U .

(Speaker 13)
S.

(Speaker 2)
Small Business Administration’s Entrepreneur of the Year, Clay Clark, and the entrepreneur trapped inside an optometrist’s body, Dr. Robert Zilner. Two men, eight kids, co -created by two different women, 13 multi -million dollar businesses. Folks, if you’re watching today’s show and you have a job or you aspire to get a job or you’ve never worked in a place where there are jobs, you may have developed, you have seen, witnessed this thing developing called culture. And the word culture just means, you know, that which you allow to grow. right? So some of us have worked in a toxic workplace.

(Speaker 2)
Some have worked in a great workplace. Some have worked in a place that seems to be getting worse, and you don’t know why. And if you’re watching today’s show and you have some sort of ability to impact the overall culture of your office, I think you’re going to love today’s show. And with that being said, we have workplace culture expert Ben Swire on the show.

(Speaker 1)
How are you, sir? I’m doing great, Clay.

(Speaker 2)
Lovely to see you.

(Speaker 1)
So before we get into our stack of stuff, I want to ask you, can you share with our listeners a little bit about your background and how you became a workplace culture expert? Sure. So I began my career in financial marketing, actually. Spent a good number of years moving up the ranks at Morgan Stanley and Alliance Bernstein and a few of those others. But I’ve always been a little bit of what my wife calls a creative platypus. So I got part psychology, part marketing, but also part philosophy, part physics, part art.

(Speaker 1)
And it was this sort of mashup of things that don’t normally fit together. It’s not a typical career path for that. But through a completely chance meeting with an old friend in the airport, I ended up with an opportunity to go to this legendary design firm called IDEO, which was a risky move at the time, but it made all the difference. Because going to IDEO from the corporate world was like It’s like going from Kansas into Oz, emotionally speaking. This place ran on trust and connection rather than incentives or fear. And I was frankly baffled that they were able to produce the level of work that they were able to get out while still focusing so much on people themselves rather than the work.

(Speaker 1)
So I just started taking it apart. I started looking deeply at how this place was working, what was going on, what were the key tenants at play. While I did that, I started a series of, you know, creative playdates that I was there that were meant to a sort of

(Speaker 2)
our own energetic wells, but what it was really about was helping build some of the emotional muscle memory that was running this place, this, you know, the trust and the vulnerability and the collaboration and all of that. And over the years, I refined that insight and those workshops, and eventually we spun them off into this, our team building business called Make Believe Works, and now this book, Safe Danger. Let’s, let’s get into this idea of the first thing, cause somebody’s watching this show and they’re going, ah, this sounds woo woo. This guy, woo woo. What he’s doing right now is he’s talking woo and woo and it’s woo woo. And I, and I, and I just want to talk about being productive.

(Speaker 2)
Yes, productive. But you’re saying in your, in your book that you can help people create a productive and and a healthy workplace culture.

(Speaker 1)
Talk to us about this for somebody out there who’s watching who says, OK, you almost lost me there when you started talking about a happy work culture. Is it possible to have a productive and a happy workplace culture? Yes. So first of all, I just need to preface this by saying I’m a cynic, and I’m skeptical, and I am with you about all of this stuff. especially what I end up doing with the team building and the play and the fun and the joy. All these things seem anathema to what I was raised.

(Speaker 1)
But what I found is that this soft stuff, the joy, the happiness, the play, the trust, the vulnerability, all of those things are what essentially enables the hard stuff. You know, psychological safety is one of the top predictors of team effectiveness. You look at Google’s Project Aristotle. They spent two years looking into this, and they found that the teams that were the most productive, that made the fewest mistakes, that had the biggest impact on their organizations and their culture, were the ones that had leaned into these soft skills. You know, Amy Edmondson’s research on Harvard that shows that when people are comfortable speaking up without fear, they’re able to learn faster and perform better.

(Speaker 1)
Gallup does these engagement surveys every year, and the data consistently shows that high -trust cultures have better retention, productivity, profitability, all of that stuff.

(Speaker 2)
So, yeah, building cultures around the soft stuff is not about being nice. It’s about reducing bias.

(Speaker 1)
the hidden tacks of fear and loneliness that people carry with them so their brains can do their best work and really deliver.

(Speaker 2)
OK, I’m going to pull up your book here. I’m going to pull it up on the screen here. Give me a second, folks, pulling it up, getting it up. There it is. OK, so this is Amazon right here. Safe Danger, An Unexpected Method for Sparking Connection, Finding Purpose and Inspiring Innovation.

(Speaker 2)
Now, Ben, my next line of questions are going to seem unhealthy, but I’m going to go for it here. There’s somebody watching today’s show and they’re going, you know, man, the book, I mean, if I were to buy this book, a hardcover at $30, I mean, it’s $30. I mean, I was going to waste that tonight on a regrettable burrito. I was going to go waste that. at the convenience store.

(Speaker 1)
I was gonna spend $30 tonight ordering yet another special edition of a Garth Brooks re -release of some ultra -platinum Garth Brooks music series. There’s people out there that have copious ways, we all have copious ways we could waste money, squander money, and spend it on stupid stuff. Why should everybody, if someone’s gonna spend $30 on this book, what are some takeaways that our listeners are for sure gonna get out of this book? So I think the biggest takeaway The biggest thing that I’m hoping people will take away from this book is the ability and the distance and the space to rethink their relationship with risk and safety. That they’re able to sort of better gauge their own comfort zones that may be holding them prisoner. I hope it helps them to rethink their relationship with the work that they do.

(Speaker 1)
that they’re able to make it more rewarding and purposeful. And they’re going to walk away with, you know, the other thing that it’s going to help you do is rethink your relationship with others, that you’ll gain some tools to accelerate trust and deepen connections.

(Speaker 2)
I think we’re all hungry for these sort of things and they’re hard to find. They’re hard to do. And what we found with safe danger is that there’s some easy tricks and some things that you can put in place that make that possible and doable. Let’s talk about some of the things you found in the book. I might want to take all of the books, Thunder, but maybe I can take like 5 % of the Thunder from the book and then put it on my show.

(Speaker 1)
I would like to take your Thunder, put it on my show. We’ll leave you 95 % of the Thunder. What are a few takeaways in the book, some practical moves that our listeners could use? So one of the things we hear from a lot of our clients They come to us because we have a team building company. And they come to us with the same sort of complaints again and again, which is their teams are siloed. They’re not connecting.

(Speaker 1)
They don’t trust each other. They are looking for ways to build connection amongst their people so they can collaborate better. And they’ll tell us they’ve already done a bunch of team building activities and they don’t know what else to do. And what I hear pretty consistently is that the sort of activities that they’re engaging in are actually sort of self -defeating. And by that, I mean there’s sort of three specific ways that people tend to lean into building their teams that actually defeat the whole purpose. So the first is around competition.

(Speaker 1)
Lots of team building leans into competition because it’s a quick and easy way to get people fired up and excited. But competition inherently divides people. It pits them against each other. Most people show off, and most people lose. So it’s not a great mindset to put people in if what you’re hoping for is for them to really connect in an authentic way. scavenger hunts, trivia contests, the sort of thing that people put people through.

(Speaker 1)
Then there’s activities that are sort of a little bit more passive that, you know, a great speaker or a cooking class. Also lots of fun, but they don’t ask anything of the audience. People don’t contribute anything of themselves to the experience. So you get people walking away thinking, well, I didn’t need to be there. No one would have noticed. So you really want to find stuff that’s where people are going to be able to contribute and add and feel valuable.

(Speaker 1)
Finally, the other mistake that we see people making again and again is that they just engage in stuff that’s fun, but just delivers old news. So, you know, happy hours or mini golf or escape rooms, but basically where the loud people get loud, the quiet people get quiet, the friends huddle together and everybody goes home the same. What we’re hoping to offer people are some other tricks and things so that they can really begin to connect and use that team -building time as a way that actually builds the team and doesn’t just fill a calendar. Now, I happen to know some people that are professional athletes, people that coach in the world of professional sports. So if somebody is watching this show and they happen to coach a professional sports team, And they are looking to come up with some team building activities. However, you know, they have a competitive team.

(Speaker 1)
They actually are coaching right now. How could somebody or if you’re a CEO, you run a company, obviously you’re competing against your biggest competitor.

(Speaker 2)
You want to win in the marketplace.

(Speaker 1)
But I want to dial into this professional sports coach example, because it’s real. What would you say to somebody who’s coaching a professional sports team and they’re going, man, I’m trying to foster team building, trying to do some team building exercises, kind of want to tap into the wisdom of Ben Swire. But it is an ultra competitive sport. When you’ve got an ultra -competitive sport like that, it is harder to extract and take out the competitive nature, because that’s what people are being hired to do. But I have worked with sales teams, and competition is what they love to do.

(Speaker 1)
You don’t need to teach kids how to eat candy. It’s what they do by nature.

(Speaker 2)
What they need to be able to do is to trust each other and know that their teammates have their back and aren’t going to stab them in it. So the work that we do. It’s really about getting people to talk to each other to open up to really discuss things so they stop hiding their sort of dense and weak spots, but rather feel comfortable opening those up with each other so that they can help protect each other when you know times get tough. So now let’s switch it to small business, let’s say.

(Speaker 12)
So somebody who has 50 employees, maybe 100 employees, maybe it’s not quite as competitive as a professional sports team.

(Speaker 1)
And they’re going, how do I apply these principles in my workplace? What advice would you have for the small business owners watching today’s show? Great. So in most workplaces, risk tends to feel heavy. Mistakes have consequences. People hold back.

(Speaker 1)
I like to use play in our team building activities. because playing creativity help lower the cost of risk. It feels like a diversion from work, but what it’s really doing is fueling the stuff that makes work go. So I think of playing creativity like oven mitts. It’s a safe way to handle dangerous material without getting burned. So for example, I was working with a group of senior execs to think about, they were looking to connect with each other and stop competing and really align their efforts in a way that was more relevant to the work they were doing instead of competing for promotions.

(Speaker 1)
And one of the things we had them do was to think about an important but difficult life lesson that they had had in their past. And I had them build quick sculptures out of clay to sort of represent the story. And you won’t be surprised. There were a lot of rolled eyes. There was a lot of sort of like shrugs and what are we doing? But within minutes,

(Speaker 1)
they were laughing, they were making shapes. And once we got into talking about the creations, they opened up far, far more than any of them planned to when they walked in. You know, one leader had made a cracked trophy, and he used it to talk about a painful experience with his father. And other people then chimed in and talked about their dynamics. And that sparked a whole deeper conversation and took them to a more sort of honest place than anything that happened in their boardroom. Getting people to play, to make things, is a great way to distract them from what they’re actually doing.

(Speaker 2)
They think they’re talking about this thing that they’ve made, but what they’re really opening up and sharing are their points of view, their perspective on life, their values. All of that comes spilling out. So play can really make risk safe. Now, let’s, you know, someone’s watching this. They’re going, OK, OK. I like this guy, Ben. I like to cover the book.

(Speaker 2)
I like Ben. But, you know, I just feel like it’s going to waste a lot of time. You know, I mean, I like the cover. Someone’s going right now. Folks, let me tell you what. What got me excited about Ben’s book here, and I wish it wasn’t that simple for me, but I am that simple, is Seth Godin, you know, is a guy who endorses the book.

(Speaker 2)
Seth Godin. I mean, this is, Seth Godin’s one of my favorite authors. He endorses the book. The book cover’s incredible. This book is well -written. Well thought out, well researched, but a Seth Godin endorsement to me is kind of as good as gold.

(Speaker 1)
What do you say to someone who says, you know, I just don’t want to waste copious amounts of my team’s time experimenting on these things. These things seem like they would cost me money and time. And as a business owner, I’m trying to battle a constant shortage of time and money. They are going to cost time. They may cost you a little money, but it’s an investment that’s worth it. In the same way that you can’t, you know, if you bring up the sports analogy again, you can’t exercise every single day full out because your muscles start to break down, things start to fall apart.

(Speaker 1)
In the same way, if you’re building a team culture, at work or at home or wherever you’re doing it, you’ve got to focus on the fundamentals that make this possible. I’ve been brought in by I can’t tell you how many teams that are looking to encourage innovation, innovative thought. We want people to think differently. We want them to take risks. But when I ask them about how they’re rewarding their, what’s the reward system?

(Speaker 1)
What’s their incentive system? How are they judging people? And it’s always in a sort of you succeed or you’re out method because what they’re looking for is wins, wins, wins, wins. But experimentation and risk cannot flourish if it’s got an axe hanging over its head. You’ve got to create the space where people feel free and able to offer up half -baked ideas without worrying about getting canned. They’ve got to feel like they can put out something that’s partially there with the confidence that their teammates are going to take it and make it better.

(Speaker 2)
rather than judging them or trying to stomp on them. You’ve got to create that dynamic.

(Speaker 1)
If you really want to push the work that you’re doing and things forward, you’ve got to create space for people to take those risks and feel like they’ll be rewarded. What is it costing someone to not take these risks? What is it costing business owners, leaders? What is it costing people if they don’t potentially take the risks that you’re talking about taking here in your new book, Safe Danger? Yeah, avoiding risk feels safe in the moment. It makes a lot of sense, but it leads to a dead end.

(Speaker 1)
When leaders steer away from risk, things feel calm and under control. But underneath that calm, the growth is quietly stalling. People tend to disengage their creativity dries up they start doing what’s expected of them and nothing more. And that erodes trust because everybody knows that they’re all holding back. So what looks like stability is actually sort of a slow decay. You know it’s a metaphor I like to think of is it’s like a pond without fresh water flowing in.

(Speaker 2)
At first, that stillness looks peaceful and even appealing, but over time, the water grows stale, the algae takes over, the ecosystem collapses. Without fresh flow, without a little turbulence, what seems safe becomes toxic. Organizations that avoid risk, they meet the same fate because they stagnate while their competitors keep experimenting and pass them by.

(Speaker 1)
How is your book organized? For people out there that maybe are hesitant to buy a book that isn’t well -written or well -organized, or maybe somebody’s bought a book at one point and they thought, wow, this seems like a great read, and then they get it and they go, ah, this is kind of like reading a VCR manual, and I no longer have a VCR, and I don’t want to read it. How is your book organized to safe danger? So the first part, the first couple of chapters are about safe danger and what I mean by that. And then the back half of it is about how to apply it, where you can use it. So in the beginning, it’s really an explanation of why safe danger works, how you can apply it and where it can come from.

(Speaker 1)
And then in the back chapters, I talk about exactly all the things you’re looking for. You’re discussing, you know, businesses are looking for productivity. They’re looking for resilience and innovation. talk about how you can get to those things through unexpected directions. So if you want productivity, inspire joy. This is not what most people think of, but it is really effective.

(Speaker 1)
If you want innovation, you’ve got to inspire curiosity. If you want community, you have to build trust.

(Speaker 2)
So there’s this balance in the book about the core concept and then how it could be applied.

(Speaker 1)
Also, it’s full of cartoons. So if you get bored of reading, you’ve got some funny stuff there to keep you going. Did you draw these cartoons or who worked with you to make these cartoons? He’s a cartoonist named Juan Astacio.

(Speaker 2)
He’s a New Yorker cartoonist that I’ve known for years and really just he loves the work that we do. and I love the work that he does. So we collaborated on these.

(Speaker 1)
So how do you, at this point with your life and the things you’re doing, how do you kind of organize your day on a daily basis? Like you’re going into companies that have maybe cultures that need to be improved and you’re going into these companies and you’re helping them improve their culture. How do you start your day? Like how do you start your own personal culture? Well, I have kids, so I start the day by yelling at them. That’s generally my approach to things.

(Speaker 1)
But other than that, I spend the day talking to people and listening to our clients. I listen to what they need, what they’re running aground on, what they’re unable to solve. Then we go and we run our workshops.

(Speaker 2)
We go into these companies, all the Fortune 500 companies that we work with that are hugely successful, but they’re there are these pockets of stagnation where they just don’t know what else to do. And so we’ll go in and we’ll work with them and talk to them and listen to them and hearing what people are struggling with and what they’re striving for, watching them lower their guard a little bit and really talk about what’s honestly on their minds, that helps us fine tune what we do with our workshops. So it’s a constant process of give and take, of learning and seeing how things are evolving and where people’s stresses are. Now, I don’t know if you’ve had an opportunity to work with the Bull Weevil Monument or the Elvis Orama or the Tupperware Museum or the Mecca of Albino Squirrels. Can you name any companies that you’ve worked with, some big organizations?

(Speaker 1)
Anybody? Because I know you probably haven’t worked with the Mecca of Albino Squirrels. Is there any organization that we might know of? No, but I’m desperate to now that I know about them. We’ve worked with Salesforce, with Meta, with Google, Hewlett Packard, Mars. We’ve worked with the Mayo Clinic.

(Speaker 1)
We’ve worked with NYU and University of California, all over the place, big companies, startup companies. nonprofits, we did a lot of work with DonorsChoose. What we found when we first started offering our workshops, what we thought we were going to be offering was innovative thought, and what really quickly became was what people were really looking for was ways to connect, that they needed their teams and their people to function better, to connect more, to really see each other in a deeper way. Whether that’s woo -woo or not is up to one’s own business model, but it was a pretty heavy need that people were really struggling with. So that cuts across industries. We’ve worked with accountants, we’ve worked with bioengineers, and we’ve worked with designers, and it cuts across economic groups, too.

(Speaker 2)
As I said, nonprofits, schools, As I was telling you off camera, you know, I am trying to take copious amounts of notes here, and you’re blowing my mind.

(Speaker 11)
I think you just listed off every major company that the world has ever produced.

(Speaker 1)
Could you share with us again some of the companies that you’ve worked with? Because this is an impressive list. Sure. Google, Meta, Netflix, Pixar, Salesforce, Procter & Gamble, Citibank, American Express, I can go on. If you go to our website, makebelieveworks . com, we’ve got a whole bunch of lovely logos there for social proof.

(Speaker 1)
But what’s interesting is that all these groups come to us because they’re doing great work, but they know they can do more. And a lot of their people, they want to step out of their comfort zones. They want to do different things, but they don’t want to rock the boat.

(Speaker 2)
Because they’ve been taught that keeping the boat intact is the way to go. And so the work that we do with our workshops or what the book is advocating with safe danger is about creating a space between those two poles between safety and danger. between stagnation and threat, where it’s just enough safety to let go of safety and just enough danger to expand your horizons and come up with new ideas. This is some wild stuff, folks. Let me go to the website. I’m going to the, it’s makebelieveworks .

(Speaker 2)
com, makebelieveworks . com. Look at these companies that Ben has worked with. Google, never heard of them. Capital One, never heard of those guys. America Express, I think that’s a startup I’ve heard of.

(Speaker 2)
Spotify, Stripe, nope. Procter & Gamble, never heard of them. Mayo Clinic, don’t know if I’ve heard of that one. YouTube, Netflix, these are all, I mean, so, you know, maybe folks, if you’re out there, you own a company, maybe you say, well, Let’s throw, you know, let’s throw Ben a bone here.

(Speaker 1)
Apparently, he’s only working with some of the small companies. He’s not able to work with a huge company. Ben, this is incredible. Do you ever think you’d be in a place in your life where you would be merging your early career interest in the financial world and the creative world all into one thing? Did you ever think that would happen? Not at all.

(Speaker 1)
This is God’s joke on me. I am a humanities major. I’m an introvert. And my life and role now is to go out and lead team building activities with people.

(Speaker 2)
It is not at all what I plan to do, but what I love about it is walking into a room full of skeptics, people that are thinking this isn’t going to work for us, this isn’t what we do. And two hours later, them coming up to me saying, you know, when I first saw what you were bringing in here, googly eyes and pipe cleaners, I was like, this is not for me. But now that I’ve done it, when are you coming back? Because I think, you know, we use these things as ways to get to the stuff that really matters to people. And it’s just so paved over that they’ve forgotten what matters to them.

(Speaker 1)
What percentage of the time, when you speak in front of an audience, do people think, man, this guy’s nuts? I mean, you look at the audience and you feel it. You feel that they look at you and say, this guy’s out of his mind. Like, what percentage of the time does that feeling, is that feeling pervasive? Every single workshop we’ve done, somebody, they all come up to me afterwards and say exactly, you know, what I just said, which is like, I thought this was going to be something that it wasn’t. This was really useful.

(Speaker 2)
This is stuff that we can take back to our work. This is going to change the dynamics. And then, you know, we get, you know, our clients come back to us again and again, and they say, this is really helping. This is worth an hour or two of our time to take away from work so that when people go back to work, it’s all the better. My final question I have here for you is a lot of times, guys like me interview guys like you, and you’ve got standards, and you’re working with Google, and Pixar, and huge companies. And I’m going, OK, I’ve tricked him into being on my show.

(Speaker 2)
OK, so he’s on my show.

(Speaker 1)
And then I try to ask you the best questions that I could think of, because I’m coming at you from a sincere perspective here. But you know, you might get off the show and go, man, I wish that podcaster guy would have asked me this, or I wish that guy would ask me that. Is there any question that you wish that I would have asked you on today’s show about your book, Safe Danger, or any other topic? Anything that you want to just share in the final 60 seconds or so that we have you? I think what I want people to really think about and, you know, If they take anything away from my book, I want it to be that they realize that taking small, brave risks in their life can really make a difference at work, at home, anywhere. That these things, that change is possible.

(Speaker 1)
That if you pay attention to the moments that hold you back, the joke that you almost made, the honest thought that you edited out, those are opportunities for people to change course. And I think if you’re not, You know, we all are taught from a really early age to sort of sand down our edges and learn to fit in.

(Speaker 2)
It’s how we survive. middle school. But I think if you haven’t learned to find your true voice and what makes you you, then the world is missing out and the people that love you are missing out. And again, that may be woo -woo, but I think we all have people that love us and that we’d like to show up better for. Folks, he’s blowing my mind. Ben Swire, right here on the line.

(Speaker 10)
Ben, thank you so much for your time, for your energy.

(Speaker 9)
I appreciate you so much.

(Speaker 3)
And I’m sorry that you missed your calling as a male model, but there still is time. Thank you so much, sir.

(Speaker 8)
Thanks, Clay.

(Speaker 6)
Have a great day.

(Speaker 3)
Bye -bye. But Clay Clark, man, he is one character. That’s a good word for him, character. Yeah, that is it. Good, driven, smart. And I’ve never met a guy who was so hyper all the time.

(Speaker 3)
He’s doing so much good.

(Speaker 8)
And then I met his mother and she just says, she just, she just lets him be Clay Clark. I mean, so he’s endorsed by his mother and he’s doing magnificent work.

(Speaker 3)
So it was a great meeting you out there and all the people that he surrounds himself with. His Clay Clark starts his days at five o ‘clock in the morning. Oh, it’s incredible. Yeah.

(Speaker 7)
He’s, he’s like, he’s, he’s a machine.

(Speaker 6)
He’s a machine, but his, you know, I got, I have problems with my company starting at nine o ‘clock. Yes, hundreds of people showing up at 5am in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

(Speaker 1)
Man, he’s a leader of a leader. He’s fantastic. Yeah, man. No, he is. He is. The Thrive Time Show.

(Speaker 1)
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(Speaker 5)
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Transcribed with Cockatoo