Business Coach | Till Death Do Us Part | 7 Principles for Creating a Great Marriage Ep. 108

Show Notes

In this Episode Business Coach, Clay Clark, brings on his lovely wife Vanessa Clark as they dive deep into the 7 principles for a great marriage.  Pastor Kelly Goins, lead pastor of Faith Church in Tulsa helps them teach what couple expectations currently are of their spouse and how to change those unhealthy perception to more uplifting outlooks on marriage.

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Audio Transcription

Business Coach 184

Listen As The Business Coach Teaches Ways To Better Your Marriage : Podcast Transcript

Presenter: And now, broadcasting from the center of the universe and the world headquarters, presenting the world’s only business school without the BS with optometrist and entrepreneur Dr. Robert Zoellner and the Forbes Small Business Administration entrepreneur of the year in your ear Clay Clark, it’s the Thrive Time Show on Talk Radio 1170. Three. Two. One. Boom.

Clay: All right T town and Oklahomies people listening right now live on the radio and people watching live on Facebook Live, my name is Clay and I am a business coach. I’m the former SBA entrepreneur of the year and I am here to help you learn how to start and grow a successful business and teach you how to have a successful life. Now typically, Dr. Robert Zoellner joins us on the show but today he’s off expanding his vast entrepreneurial empire. So I had to ask myself I had to say, “Self, who would be the perfect person to replace Dr. Zoellner? I know it’s going to be my wife.” Ms. Vanessa how are you?

Vanessa: I’m doing great tonight. Great to be here in the box that rocks.

Clay: It’s your first time being in the box that rocks.

Vanessa: That’s right. My first time in the box and I must say it’s got a great ambiance the whole feel.

Clay: The great mojo here.

Vanessa: The music in the background it’s like a party.

Clay: Oh yeah. Now we brought on a guy. This guy knows how to have a party. This guy knows how to congregate a group of people and coach these people into having a great time. He really knows how to lead a flock of people if you will. It’s Tulsa’s shepherd. It’s Tulsa’s pastor. It’s Pastor Kelly Goins. How are you doing sir?

Kelly: Hey I’m doing great. Doing great.

Clay: Today we’re talking about your observations. We are talking today about seven observations for creating a great marriage. Some of you who are listening and you’re going, “I thought this was a business show. I thought this was a show about business. This is a show about business and selling stuff.” Here is the thing is, when you have a successful business, but if you come home and you don’t have a successful marriage, not so good.

Today we’re talking about how to have a great marriage. You are talking about having great business you want to have a great marriage, if you have a great business and a great marriage that’s a great life that’s awesome. Today we’re talking about specifically how to have a great marriage. Pastor Kelly for the people who are not familiar with you and your ministry where can they find your church my friend?

Kelly: We are located at the very awesome corner of the 81st and Memorial in Tulsa. We’re on the Northeast corner there right next to the QuikTrip. It’s a brand new location for us. We’ve been there for about four weeks now and it’s fantastic. We’d love to have you guys come by and worship with us.

Clay: I want to brag on the place for a little bit. It’s got a beautiful coffee bar there. You have a great praise and worship you have a great ministry team. Now how many years have you been a pastor? I mean have you just hacked in or have you just started six weeks ago or is this a thing?

Kelly: I’ve actually been in full time ministry for about 38 years.

Clay: Wow.

Kelly: I’m not that old but I started young. I’ve been in full time ministry for about 26/27 something like that and so I’ve been doing ministry all my life. My father is a pastor and grandfather died at 104 and he was a pastor all of his life too.

Clay: 104?

Kelly: Yes. He pastored his church until he was 100.

Clay: Was he eating organic?

Kelly: Absolutely not. Fried food —

Vanessa: He was going back to biblical times. He was pushing through looking for those three hundred —

Kelly: Everything was organic back then.

Vanessa: That’s right.

Clay: Well. Okay. Okay now here’s the deal. Now we’re talking about again the seven observations for creating a great marriage. Have you had the opportunity over the years to counsel couples in marriage?

Kelly: Oh sure.

Clay: When you’re counselling couples in marriage, you’ve probably seen the same– predictable pitfalls maybe over and over?

Kelly: Yeah. A lot of the times that’s the truth.

Clay: Now let’s get into this observation number one.

Kelly: Okay.

Clay: Understand the difference between desires versus expectations. I’m going to ask you, what do you mean by that?

Kelly: This is a big one. For those of you who are listening by radio you can’t see this but I actually brought visual aids. I usually do this with my wife and so she helps me. But here is the thing whenever we decided to get married we had these desires that we thought we would have in a marriage. We had things like new cars and a nice house and all these stuff. So I brought a box here that is the difference between what I thought marriage was and what a marriage actually ended up being.

Clay: Is this going to be a positive visual aid or is this going to be a negative?

Kelly: No it’s going to be both. I got to do a positive and a negative here.

Clay: I want to describe what you’re pulling out here but on Facebook Live you can see it. Vanessa can you kind of describe what you’re seeing here as he unveils it?

Vanessa: Yeah I’ll do it.

Kelly: All right I’ll start with my wife’s. When my wife got married to me, see she expected —

Clay: Here we go. He’s reached into the box.

Vanessa: Yeah it’s coming out.

Clay: He’s looking around. He’s —

Vanessa: Like a Tiffany’s box coming out.

Kelly: She expected these Tiffany’s gifts and these Tiffany Blue thing. She expected life to be like that.

Vanessa: Nice.

Kelly: Actually it turned a lot —

Vanessa: A couple Tiffany boxes I’ve got to say. Not just one but a couple.

Clay: Large boxes too. Large purchases.

Vanessa: A larger one and a smaller one. The small one is —

Kelly: It turned out a little bit more like this. A toaster.

Vanessa: A toaster.

Clay: A toaster?

Kelly: I actually made the mistake of buying her a toaster for Christmas one year.

Clay: A little confession here. My first year I was married to Vanessa, Vanessa what did I buy you? Do you remember what I bought you?

Vanessa: Every scent of lotion from Victoria Secret. Because he couldn’t decide one so I probably wanted them all.

Kelly: [laughs]

Clay: Remember I bought you all those utilitarian appliances.

Vanessa: Yes. I appreciated the effort but for me we didn’t have a lot of money I’m thinking, wait he bought every kind. I could keep one and return all these and probably pick up some stuff.

Clay: This is the facial — This is what she said. She goes, “Thank you so much. Do you have the gift receipt?” I go, oh I worked so hard. I went there in to Victoria Secret in to the belly of the beast.

Vanessa: In to the lotion section.

Clay: In to the lotion section.

Kelly: Well the important part of was it was Victoria Secret it didn’t matter what came from it just because it was Victoria Secret —

Clay: I didn’t make eye contact with anybody. It was very stressful in there.

Kelly: Yeah I know. I can’t go in to the place.

Clay: Back to your visual aids. I’m sorry about that.

Kelly: Okay. Well, that’s the way it is. I went out to lunch today and took my son-in-law with me and he made the confession. He just got married in July.

Clay: This is your son-in-law?

Kelly: Yeah. To my daughter and he made the confession that he doesn’t have anything for Christmas for her. He’s got a lot of bills —

Vanessa: I hope you are coaching him because you’ve been through this.

Kelly: I am. I said to him. Listen, and for all of you young newlywed guys out there you got to hear this. Never buy your wife anything that plugs in or that has a motor.

Clay: Oh wow. Note to self.

Kelly: It needs to have chocolate on it leather conditioner or jewelry cleaner and you’re okay. It has to have those kinds of things.

Clay: No practical value at all?

Kelly: No. No. it’s got to be a fun thing. So that’s the way that was. But she expected Tiffany Blue I gave her a toaster. Here is another thing she expected. It is what —

Vanessa: The beach?

Kelly: Yeah the beach.

Vanessa: He’s got a really nice beach towel here guys. It’s got aquamarine, turquoise.

Kelly: Yeah she loves the beach and she expected for us to go to the beach all the time and instead she got —

Clay: Here we go. He’s reaching into the box.

Vanessa: Oh.

Kelly: Camouflage.

Vanessa: Hunting maybe I’m not sure.

Kelly: Yeah. Well we go to Colorado on vacations. She hasn’t gotten used to that yet so we like going to the mountains and it’s cold and that kind of stuff —

Clay: Do you cover yourself in deer pee to go out there and chase a deer?

Kelly: Well that was the other thing. I wasn’t going to bring that but she expected perfume and I’ve got me more deer urine in my house than I do perfume.

Clay: [laughs] Those who don’t know what we’re talking about if you’re an avid hunter I grew up in rural Minnesota, you cover yourself in deer urine and then it attracts the deer because apparently deer love deer urine.

Kelly: [laughs] Well you don’t really cover yourself in it but you do sprinkle it around.

Clay: Sprinkle it around.

Vanessa: It’s still a little bit too much. Any amount.

Clay: You anoint yourself in deer urine.

Kelly: I’ve got a confession.

Clay: Oh yeah.

Kelly: I’ve actually got a deer head in the trunk of my pickup right now.

Vanessa: What?

Kelly: Yeah it was kind of a long story.

Clay: A real head?

Kelly: A real head. Should I go get it?

Clay: Have you taxidermied it?

Vanessa: [laughs] No.

Kelly: Yes I have. We processed it. I donated it all to the fire department.

Clay: My wife is crying.

Kelly: I’m sorry.

Vanessa: I’m weeping over– we can’t [inaudible 00:08:19].

Kelly: This was a bad deer. We had to get rid of it. Okay. We digressed.

Clay: So back to your visual again.

Kelly: okay. So that was her ideas of what expectations were and what reality was. Well here was my expectations. I had a little bit more of an expectation of these things of–

Clay: Okay here we go. He’s going in to the box. He’s looking at the box. What is he going to pull out?

Vanessa: Yeah a lot of stripes a lot of color. Colourful material and now–

Kelly: I had domestic stuff like an apron here a kitchen apron, kitchen utensils–

Vanessa: She was going to be cooking or you were going to be cooking?

Kelly: No. She was going to be cooking. I figured that I was going to come home to meals and great food.

Clay: I want a woman who will cook all the time.

Kelly: Yeah.

Vanessa: It’s a cute apron.

Kelly: Instead I got–

Vanessa: Ramen Noodles.

Kelly: Ramen Noodles. That was the staple of our house when we were growing up. My wife doesn’t like to cook. So the first year of our life though I knew she worshipped me because she brought a burnt offering and put it on the table in front of me every night.

Clay: Your wife doesn’t like to cook?

Kelly: No.

Clay: Wow. Vanessa what do you think about that?

Vanessa: I don’t like to cook. It’s overwhelming. I would just do a smoothie every night if I could. So much easier.

Kelly: Yeah. Her cooking got better when she figured out that the smoke alarms weren’t timers.

Clay: [laughs]

Vanessa: I feel I’m a good cook I just really don’t enjoy the process.

Kelly: Yeah. I understand. That’s the way that goes and she really– One time she asked me to take her out and I said, “Where do you want to go?” She said, “Let’s go somewhere I haven’t been in a long time.” I took her to the kitchen.

Clay: All right. Now, wow this guy.

Vanessa: I want to ask you. Sorry. What I think you’re saying here is we have all these desires and it became expectations and I feel like this is a huge thing that Grothe, I think it’s David Grothe–

Clay: Pastor Grothe.

Vanessa: Yeah we went to have pre-marital counselling.

Every couple has got to go into premarital counseling. It was huge. He went over basically what you did right here. What are your expectations? Clay, for marriage? Vanessa, what are your expectations? And we had to sit there and see where we were apart and premarital counseling is huge because you can work through all these things before. And I’m sure you can do that with couples. Correct?

Kelly: Right, yeah. We have a whole program that will take couples through and talk to them about– what are those expectations and realities in marriage, and what do you look forward to. And just what those realities are because it’s important for them to know about that before they ever get into those marriages

Clay: Now here’s the deal. My job as a business coach is to make this knowledge actionable, ok? And to give you some really positive facts. So, we have a fun factoid. This is just in from the American Psychological Association. The fun people over there, the fun police at the American Psychological Association. They said that 40-50% of married couples in the United States divorce. The divorce rate for subsequent marriage is even higher. So at marriage number two it’s not so good, not so good. So that’s not really a fun fact at all but the actionable knowledge here is if you’re talking to your wife and you’re going– if you’re talking to your husband and you’re going: ” We just aren’t on the same page”.

What I encourage you to do tonight, is you want to take your super attractive spouse. You want to take him out to. What’s the restaurant Burg..?What’s the restaurant?

Vanessa: I like Russo’s.

Clay: You take him out to Russo and what you’re going to do is get him some tomato basil. Get him their favorite entre or soup. Go out there, go ahead and make a list of what your expectations are versus maybe– where your at right now versus the expectations versus what’s actually happening. Your desires versus expectations. Go ahead and do it. It’s a healthy exercise. When we come back we’re going to talk about observation number two and do you want to know what observation number two is?

Well I’d love to tell you but I can’t tell you until after you come back because we have these great advertisers and we want you to listen to their sensational commercials. When we come back we’re going to talk about observation number two to take your marriage out of the toilet.

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Presenter: Live, local, now. You’re listening to the Prime Time Show on Talk Radio 1170.

Clay: All right, thrive nation. Welcome back to the Thrive Time Show. You see, many of you are just discovering this. You see, in the middle of the day you’re going: ” What is this? This isn’t political? They’re not talking about Miss. Clinton? They’re not talking about Mr. Trump? They’re not talking about illegal– aliens? They’re not talking about deportation? They’re not talking about health-care? These guys are talking about how to make a better life. What is this show? I don’t know if I like something so positive and so actionable.

I’d rather just learn about generic political things that irritate me that I can not solve. That’s what I want to hear”. Well, if that’s you, you need to listen to the other guys, but in the meantime you’ve found the Thrive Time Show during your afternoon. It’s your dojo of mojo. My name is Clay. I’m the SBA Entrepreneur of the year. Tim joined here with Dr. Robert Zoellner but he’s out expanding his vast entrepreneurial empire today and so I brought on the co Clay with the most, my incredible beautiful wife of 15 years, Mrs. Vanessa Clark. Mrs. Vanessa, how are you?

Vanessa: I’m excited to be here, in the box that rocks and hanging out with pastor Kelly.

Kelly: Yes.

Clay: We brought in pastor Kelly. Now just for anybody who doesn’t know who pastor Kelly is. He pastors a flock, he’s a shepherd of a great group of people here in Tuls, Oklahoma. They are the faith church congregation and pastor Kelly, where is that place located my friend?

Kelly: 81st Memorial. Brand new location for us and so we’ve been there for about a month now. And we’re on the northeast corner right next to QuikTrip.

Clay: What’s that website? People want to learn more about your church.


Clay: And why should somebody check out your church? I mean you know somebody is going to go: “Aa, I don’t know, I’m going to be at that QuikTrip anyway. I’m going to get some taquitos. Why should I mozy on over there.”

Kelly: Well we got great coffee, we got– great worship, we got great loving people and I think it’s a place you will find yourself at home and you will learn about the word of god.

Clay: And today we are talking about the seven observations for creating a great marriage. You’ve been in the ministry for years and we want to help all the Thrivers, all the 1170 listeners have a great marriage. So observation number two is your desires become expectations. I’m going to ask, what do you mean by that my friend?

Kelly: Well, somewhere between the limo ride to the airport on vacation and the cab ride back home. Your expectations and the reality of your life and your marriage kind of collide. And you hit that understanding that, uh, it’s not going to be like you thought it was going to be. Now, you have these expectations. First they were desires. You wanted your wife to be a certain way. You wanted your husband to be a certain way. And now that you’re married and you’ve gotten back you expect him to perform and be the person that you want them to be.

And what happens is that in this process. It’s very self centered, it’s not us centered. It’s very centered on what I want and what I need. And so, it’s that reality when our desires and reality actually collide and expectations collide.

Clay: So let me ask you this. Vanessa, as a married woman as a woman who– you know you’ve been around a lot of married people, you’ve been at Tulso community for a long time. What thoughts do you have, or what questions would you have for pastor Kelly about- what does he mean by your desires becoming expectations.

Vanessa: Uh well, I think he’s exactly right. I mean we all have- for every marriage, it’s going to be something different and for each spouse it’s going to be something different about what their expectations are for their spouse to meet certain needs. But I think that really it comes down to how do you solve that problem and I think if you can as adults maturely sit down and say, as a team were are we wanting to go together, and then what are we needing from each other. Um you know as a woman, obviously I have these emotional needs.

My husband not so much and that’s fine. And so , you need to know. Okay, well for him these are the things that are important to him and he is satisfied as long as these things, you know he has these things, and uhm I-

Clay: I want to watch all the Patriots games, that’s all I’m saying I want to watch all the games every game–

Vanessa: For him to understand what my needs are. Then I think that you can move forward and you can be fulfilled and you can say what, you know, obviously things are going to come up and you bring up hey, “This is an issue or this is something that I realize not having to do with you but this is a need I have and this would be helpful to me if maybe we could meet it in this way”. But I think always focusing on not on the other person about what they’re doing wrong because they’re not. They’re being themselves, but looking into yourself and saying, this is a need I have, can we sit together and figure out a way I can better meet your needs and you can meet mine.

Clay: For somebody who is listening, pastor Kelly, he goes okay. I’m listening and I’m realizing, no. My desires have become expectations and those expectations are not being met and I don’t know what to do. What advice would you have for the listeners out there. What advice?

Kelly: Well, I think exactly what Vanessa is saying is really important. That you sit down even before you’re married and you write down what your expectations are. What you want out of a marriage. What you think the marriage is going to fulfill for you. What your needs are. What your spouse’s needs are going to be.

Vanessa: Possibly you may realize you guys don’t even want the same thing in which case you just say you know what. I’m glad we found this out now and not, you know, after the marriage.

Clay: You don’t like the patriots. I don’t understand.

Kelly: In almost every marriage, in almost every wedding that I perform and I always do this on my own. But I would always go to the groom before like, minutes before and I’d say to him. My keys are in my pocket, if you want to leave, go. And I will make whatever excuse for you because I’d rather you bug out now than once you get married– I married a couple one time and six months later, six months later they divorced. And actually about after three weeks, they split apart and it just wasn’t what they thought it would be. They thought it would be, get up in the morning and have breakfast together, out on the patio, in romance.

Vanessa: And they probably never sat and had these deep conversations which is the whole thing.

Clay: Okay, I have a little rant I want to go on, I’d like to go on a rant and then you guys can pull me back. Here’s the deal. I believe that men, and men, you’re listening right now and you’re going. This is not me, I’m not that kind of guy, I’m not the kind of man bear pig. I would not do that. This is what I think. I think, guys, we look around and we go. She is hot, oh yes, she is hot. And then we begin, once we lock in. Radar lock. She is hot. Than what we do is, no matter what she does, henceforth we justify all. We’re like, but it doesn’t matter, she is so hot. And then, that’s what guys do. They’re infatuated. I don’t think they’re actually in love. I think love is a decision. Maybe I’m wrong, and I’ll let you two just kind of destroy me and say, you’re wrong, you are wrong. But I believe that marriage is– love is more of a decision.

And a commitment and not a feeling but it is more of a commitment that’s what I believe. And I believe that infatuation is the current situation that most men are in before they get married that’s why I think engagement is such a big thing!

Vanessa: And women too, I think they’re infatuated at anyone. Once you get into a relationship with someone then you’re gonna have to make the ongoing choice

Clay: So courtship is so huge, though, like dating someone or being engaged for nine months or six months–

Kelly: Our society wants to tell us that we gotta try it out before marrying. The thing is that more young couples now, specially Millennials, are living together and they are not getting married. But here’s the thing. You don’t even have to base that on a biblical standpoint which the bible does but you can just base that upon a statistical standpoint that there is a large percentage of those people who never stayed together because they’re trying things out. And they think they’ve got to try it out and the difference is–

Vanessa: And eventually It’s always gonna come to a fork or in a disagreement and you’re gonna have to say, “Are we gonna work through this?”

Kelly: And there’s no commitment. So it’s easier just to bail out and we have kids with each other, we live together and when something goes wrong, one person leaves and then we have a single mom at home wondering where it all went wrong. The thing is that you have to make that commitment and that commitment is a ring that you put on the fourth finger of the left hand, it’s a tourniquet to setup circulation.

Vanessa: Also I really think that commitment is not only, “I’m going to stay married no matter what!” It is a commitment to make your marriage the best marriage. So many people– I’m going to use this program as an example. Are spending time and money and thoughts– on growing their business and that is wonderful but we have to know the same principles, apply it to anything. You’re either growing closer together or further apart. You can never be stagnant.

Clay: All right, Dr. Laura! Here we go. She just– we got her worked up here at Thriver. She just started to get into that zone. Now as we come back we’re going to talk about observation number three: We conquer our marriage. What are we talking about, “The conqueror of marriage”? Stay tuned and find out. Thrive Time Show. Boom.

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Presenter: You are listening to the Thrive Time Show on Talk Radio 1170.

Clay: All right 1170, welcome back to the Thrive Time Show during your afternoon. My name is Clay Clark, your former SBA entrepreneur of the year and a business coach, but more importantly I’m the father of five human kids and I am honored to be on the show today with you because we are talking about how to grow a successful business. Every day, on this show, we talk about how to grow a successful business, and our shows are known for providing that business school without the BS but when you go to have a successful business you want to come home to a successful life and a successful family.

So today, we are talking about how to grow a successful marriage and specifically we’re talking about the seven observations for creating a great marriage and so to bring some fair and balanced observations to this program we decided to bring on my incredible wife of 15 years. Mrs. Vanessa Clark, how are you?

Vanessa: I am doing great. It’s kind of fired up there with that Kelly before the break.

Clay: Oh yeah, and we’re bringing on Pastor Kelly. He is the pastor of Faith Church and it’s a growing church in South Tulsa. Pastor Kelly, where can we find out more about your thriving, your growing church?

Kelly: Well, we are on the web, You can look us there on Facebook, Instagram, those kind of things. Just drive by! We got a big sign on the top of our building, don’t just drive by faith or don’t just walk by faith. Stop in to say hi at Sunday mornings 10:30.

Clay: Now you’ve been counselling couples for years, you’ve been helping people have successful marriages, and so you’ve seen so probably pretty predictable pitfalls and we are talking today about the seven observations for creating a great marriage and we’re on to observation number three which is really kind of a pitfall. This is, this thing, you call the “Conqueror Marriage”, and so I don’t know what you are talking about. Educate me.

Kelly: Well, we come to that point in our relationship where our expectations and our realities kind of collide together, we have options of how we go and in these next three or three different directions that people are going, there are kind of negative directions so I want to point out the first one is a “Conqueror Marriage”. You have conquered it, you have finally let her know exactly what she should be and what you expect, you know exactly what he wants in a marriage and you’ve conquered it. You’ve won. You’ve won the battle and you’ve let her know, you’ve set her straight and now everything is gonna be your way, the way you want it to be.

Clay: What about if when she sets you straight? She has said, “You’re gonna start to decorate this house with doe skin, paint and you’re gonna wear a matching sweatshirts, a sweater. We’re gonna do a family photo session and you need to wear a matching sweater and your son’s gonna wear the sweater and we’re gonna be in the same jeans together and working.” What happens in that?

Kelly: We think of those families– I mean, we all know those families who the wife is in charge and she’s conquering it and she’s got all them under submission. The things is, is that it’s really easy for me to be me, but it is not easy for her to be me, and it’s not easy for me to be her. We have to be who we are and I can’t make everybody else be the way I want them to be. I have to give and take and so this conquer marriage never works because even though I win the battle I am losing the war because I’m losing my marriage.

Vanessa: I think this is so huge because you have to let each of each other truly be themselves. I have an example for this. [crosstalk] Years ago, my husband was working with the business and he took our kids around an old neighborhood and we just don’t live in the neighborhood anymore, okay, and he was passing out flyers, note, not disturbing anyone on everyone’s door sign. Well I guess some of the neighbors, one particular, did not like us because we had a brown van without a door and it was kind of ugly and so there was maybe some hard feelings.

Clay: Real quick, I just want to clear the Thrivers. I’d sold the business and we were doing very, very well and I had a brown van for nostalgic reasons and one of our employees ripped the door off the van and I want to keep— it was like the a-team. [Crosstalk] It was a van without a door and so people were upset about me but anyway, that’s the context.

Vanessa: Yeah, so anyway, people did not like the idea so maybe some did not like us. So, the next day after passing out flyers, suddenly there was a “No Soliciting” sign in our neighborhood, and we’re the first house that comes in. My husband comes home. “That’s not right! They can’t do that. There can’t be a sign! I don’t know what to do with this!” And now I am realizing I am on a radio show.

Clay: Sure, you could show the whole thing.

Vanessa: So that night my husband disappears for a while and then he comes in the bed and he’s like, “It’s gone.” I’m like, “Woah, what’s gone?” He’s like, “The sign.” I’m like, “What?” He’s like, “I took down the sign.” “You took down the sign? Why did you took down the sign? Where is the sign?” “It’s in the river.” I was getting stressed. There was no confrontation and I am thinking, “Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, they’re going to come tomorrow and they’re going to come to me and they’re gonna ask for the sign and I can’t lie and I have to say, ‘My husband threw it in the river.'”

So long story short, he, out of the goodness of his heart and maybe some tears from me, he got that sign and finally put it back but this is something I’ve realized until years later. I was infringing on a little part of the Clay that had to be himself. He had to be able to take that sign and I just had just to be able not to say anything about it and, but you know, there are also parts of Vanessa that have to be able to say, “You know what, this really bothers me.” or “I have a problem with this.” and it’s getting to your authentic self and being able to be that yourself and let spouse be that, and if you can’t do that you don’t have a legit marriage. You’re not gonna, I don’t know how long are you gonna be able to fake it.

Clay: Pastor Kelly, what do you have to say to this?

Kelly: Let me just like– I love what Vanessa said, and that’s very true because a lot of families go through this but the problem is, is that when you’ve conquered everything, the problem is that intimacy leaves because-

Vanessa: Because you’re not letting the other person be themselves.

Kelly: –you’re in control, and now intimacy and love becomes a duty because I’m doing what I am told and that is not what marriage is all about.

Vanessa: And so that’s what I am saying. I think there’s such intimacy when that you can let the person be truly be themselves, you can hear the things they have to say, they can be validated and that is having a true relationship but the rest, Yes.

Clay: Now speaking of intimacy, I wanna tell you what, it is ecstasy when Pastor Kelly is next to me and Thrivers, what I’m telling you, when you’re on Facebook live you want to see we three. I am just telling you, it is just audio. He’s one of the toughest, most beautiful man. He’s a pastor of a growing church. You gotta check him on Facebook live and check, check, check it out. My name is Clay Clark.

Former SBA entrepreneur of the year and you are here on the Thrive Time Show your daily dojo of mojo. We come back we are going to get into the next pitfall and trust me you want to know about this.

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Clay: All right drive nation, Green County and Oklahomies welcome back to the Thrive Time Show. For many of you, this is lunch time. This is the time that you are going to get some lunch. You know where I get lunch when I can go out for lunch? I will be honest with you, I never go out for lunch. When I go out for lunch it’s about 7PM on the way home or 6PM or whatever time it is. But I go to Oklahoma Joe’s. Do you why I go there? One they’re sponsor, that’s why I go there. Number two seriously, seriously the baked beans, they’ve won awards for having Oklahoma’s best-baked beans, in fact the world’s best-baked beans.

Vanessa: He does bring this home all the time especially with my son Obrien and they went out and grabbed anytime we’ve anyone in time visiting, grab those beans.

Clay: Let me tell you what this is a guarantee I have for this is– I call this the Oklahoma Joe’s, baked bean challenge. Here’s the challenge, you go over to any Oklahoma Joe’s location there’s three that I know about, And there’s a mobile location– i think it would be kind of expensive I’m sure you can rent the mobile version to come to your house, but the thing is you go to any of those three locations, go to Oklahoma Joe’s, go get those baked beans, and– just test them, try them, and I tell you if they’re the world’s best baked beans, you just come here to the world headquarters, on the left coast of the Arkansas river and beautiful Jinx America, and you come to our world headquarters and I will give you not only a hi-five, but I will give a free copy of my newest book Thrive.

If they are not the best-baked beans, you come to my office, I will call you a liar and then I will give you a free copy of my new book Thrive. I’m just telling you that they’re the best-baked beans you got to eat and I promise, I’m committing right now Tulsa for a limited time if you do it today, I’m going to take care of you just today. Now you go, “Today I got to alter my life to get a book? It doesn’t make any sense.” Oh it will make sense when you and I have had a hi-five or I’ve called you a liar, either way it’s going to be a great form– a great form of a personal communication. We are going to really build a great relationship. Speaking of great relationships, today on the show, we are talking about, how to create a great marriage, and specifically seven observations for creating a great marriage.

We are moving on here to observation number four. Pastor Kelly Goins, talk to us about observation number four the compromised marriage.

Kelly: Well this is another pitfall of marriages and it’s the compromise marriage it’s when I divvy out and decide I am going to do my thing and you do your thing. The man decides, he’s going out on Friday night, she decides she’s going out on Saturday night and again we’ve been talking about these marriages and trying to get out of ‘I’ marriages, and trying to get into marriage that is together, a ‘We’ marriage, and this is a pitfall of that.

Clay: I can tell you a sign that you’re in a compromised marriage, you know a sign as a tell, tell sign?

Kelly: What? Yes go.

Clay: When you’ve been a marriage counselor for years, so I’m going to sell you what I’ve seen.

Kelly: Okay

Clay: If a man gets a customized bowling ball-


Clay: With his name on it, if your husband says, “I want a balling ball with my name on it, and a rose in the middle of it”, and then short–

Kelly: [laughs]

Clay: If your husband is running out embroidered bowling shirt, or he– you find that or you look at his credit card you’re like, “What is he up to, what is he doing, is he sneaking around?” if he is signed up for some kind of bowling membership, or some kind of league, you know that he’s beginning to compromise and say, “You know what, I’m going to have to live my own life. I’ve decided to just throw it all away, and I’m just going to eat cheese fries and drink beer, enjoy a bowling league.” That’s how you know things have really hit the bottom, this has been–

Vanessa: I think this comes back to, from me anyways. There’s just a principle that you can apply to business, to fitness, to relationships, you’re either getting better or worse. These two people are either deciding, or you’ve got to make a conscious decision and effort to grow together, or by default, you’re growing apart. There’s no being stagnant. When you’re both going two separate directions, doing two separate things, this is why I think it’s so huge, if you’re someone, a couple who has a business, especially a startup that it’s going to be taking so much time, to incorporate it into your entire family’s life because you can’t have– be going two separate directions and it won’t work.

Kelly: You guys do a great job over there. I mean I come up here and I see your kids-

Vanessa: It’s a conscious effort that we both have decided to make.

Kelly: -I see your kids working, and I see the whole family involved in this and you know the people that Clay hangs out with and vice versa.

Clay: There’s no one that I hang out with that she doesn’t know. This is true. It’s true, I mean see, and I will say this because I mean this. There’re moves that we do, my wife and I do these moves, and we probably tonight we can learn something from you, so I’m excited if you’d continue to educate us but there’s some things, there’re three things that we do, I constantly encourage everybody else to do. One is that we are very intentional about really not spending with somebody of the opposite sex, in like a closed-door format.

Vanessa: Because again it comes you are always going closer together for–

Clay: You know in other occasion, opportunities where those things can happen, yes. But you got to be intentional to just go that’s not normal, we don’t do that. Our second thing is we really try to bring our kids into the business. Our kids actually do the– we have five kids, we home school them all, or I say we, mainly she.

Vanessa: [unintelligible 00:36:49]


Clay: Big shout out to you she’s a great lady but we have the five kids and so they are up here doing the cleaning in the office, I’m teaching my son entrepreneurship and landscaping–

Kelly: Slave labor is what it is.

Clay: Slave labor yes.

Vanessa: They make some big bucks let me tell you.

Clay: The third thing is we really, really do talks about the business surround the kids, we involve the kids, they come up on the weekend, they help us and it’s really a family thing. I would just encourage if you are listening right now and you do own a business, and according to Forbes, 57% of you listening right now, want to start a business so in some point, make sure that you try to be intentional about putting rocks, I repeat rocks in your schedule.

If you take rocks and you put them in a cup, and then you fill that cup with sand, the rocks still fit in that cup. If you put in the sand first, the rocks don’t fit. Support the rocks of scheduling time by your significant other into your schedule and your family. Now Pastor Kelly, what are the kind of warnings or I guess advice would you have for people as it relates to the compromised marriage?

Kelly: Well, again we have this concept of me divvying out my time and bargaining with my spouse that she gets to do things and I get to do things. And I again these are two separate lives. What we are talking about here is bringing these lives back together because as long as I am more concerned with my rights and what I get out of the marriage and what I want, and her doing what I want to do, when I’m not spending the time listening to what she needs and taking care of her needs, this is still what we are calling ‘I’ marriage. It’s an ‘I’ centered marriage and an ‘I’ centered marriages never work they always fall apart.

Clay: They never work, you’ve been– how many years have been in ministry my friend?

Kelly: I’ve been in ministry for about 38 years. Full time being in ministry, full time for about 28, about 27.

Clay: You’ve seen, I mean according to all the statics about half the marriages end in divorce, don’t matter what statics you’re look at, you can read the, Huffington Post or you can look the American Psychological Association or you can get into the different studies, but if you could say to the people listening right now, “Hey put the brakes on and do this.” If you could tell somebody one action step as it relates to this compromised marriage kind of warning here. What action step would you give them?

Kelly: Well I’m not going to jump all the way off this because we are going to share that here in other segment coming in front, but what I’m saying one of the greatest things you can do is start spending time together. We’ve been talking about this and I always think of Bible, Biblical connections but there’s a verse in the Bible that says, what does it profit a man if he gains the whole but loses his own soul? I’ve kind of adopted that, to say what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, has the greatest business in the world but loses his own family?

There has to be that connection and part of that is setting those priorities. I know from my life and it’s Biblical order that we can do is to set priorities. God is number one, my family is second, my wife is second, my personal development is third, and then my work is fourth, and then my church attendance is fifth and I think that you have to keep that priority list going.

Vanessa: I’ve had this example before, and I’m going to share on this show is that often times men view marriage like it’s a house. That it’s one bedroom in the house-

Clay: One bedroom, yes the bedroom yes.

Vanessa: -and they have this all other bedrooms they go to during the day. They go to their office, to their work. They might go to do workouts somewhere, they might have their friends, and then they home to the room that is their wife. Where a wife views a marriage as the whole house, it’s all integrated. She is going to come home, and tell you about the friend she works out with, or she’s going to want to know about your friends you work out with.

She’s going to want to know about your job, she wants– I think it as woman, I think we’re all made so completely different male, and female. Women just want to be included. They want to feel like they’re not this thing off to the side. But they want to know that they’re integrated in your whole like, because they’re going to integrate you in their whole life.

That’s why I think it’s so awesome like Clay is saying, we’ve had to make being intentional, “Hey we have kids, we want to have them be a part of business. How can we do that?” Because is such a big part of our life, “Hey we grew the beginning together, but how can we continue that?” and it’s a conscious decision that it’s going to be different for everyone, and how they incorporate, and do those things.

Kelly: Sure, two things I always make sure I say to my wife every day, and the first one before I leave I tell her she looks wonderful, she looks beautiful. Because I-

Vanessa: She does, I have seen her at [inaudible] ago, and she’s always, always dressed up.

Kelly: -know, she’s hot. I pondered my coverage on that. She’s a lot much prettier than what I should have gotten. But here’s the thing, if I don’t tell her that, someone else will, and if she doesn’t hear it from me, she going to listen to it. The other thing is, when I come at night I say, “How was your day?” Because again I want to meet that need in my wife, and I don’t want other people meeting it. Those are my two questions I always give to my wife.

Clay: I don’t mean to one up here, but then after I do that I go and get my wife a dozen roses.

Kelly: Okay, all right.

Clay: I typically will give her a bubble bath, and throw in the finest of the [inaudible]

Kelly: Where the Tiffany box?


Clay: After that I tend to give her a tiffany gift. This is just every day, these are just things that I do every day. But Thrivers seriously, if you’re listening right now, who has a perfect marriage? Nobody, But I’m going to say this, we want you to have a successful life. We’re here to help you, we’re here to help mentor you, and really to answer your questions.

We’ve had so many people email [email protected] asking how I can improve my marriage, and my business. That’s what today’s show is all about. When we come back, we’re going to get into this next pitfall which pastor Goins has seen for years, stay tuned to Thrive Time Show.

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Presenter: Broadcasting from the center of the universe, featuring up optometrist turned entrepreneur Dr Robert Zoellner, and US SBA entrepreneur of the year, Clay. This is the Thrive Time Show on Talk Radio 1170.

Clay: All right 1170 listeners the smartest people on the planet. You could be listening to anything right now, you could be listening to a little Justin Beiber, nothing wrong with that. But you could be listening to a little Taylor Swift, nothing wrong with that. You could be listening to political news right now. You could be getting super frustrated by this– The status of the economy, or the recount, or all that. But you know what you’re doing right now? You’re choosing the best in a self help programs. You’re trying your best to be the best singer, you’re trying to be the best self that you can be, so you can take a great selfie than I. Get out your phone take a picture of yourself, because you’re the best self you can be.

You’re listening to the Thrive Time Show and my name is Clay Clark and I am a business coach. I’m a former SBA entrepreneur of the year, and here today I have two very special guests on the show today. Doctor Robert Zoellner today, he’s a doctor, he’s an entrepreneur—He’s an optometrist turned tycoon.

He’s out expanding his vast entrepreneurial empire, while I’m holding the Alamo here today within the glass box that rocks here at the world head quarters. I brought on two great guests today, I brought on my incredible wife of 15 years, Mrs. Vanessa Clark how are you?

Vanessa: [laughs] I’m doing great, doing great.

Clay: I brought on Pastor Kelly Goins, how are you sir?

Kelly: I’m going great, doing fine.

Clay: A lot of people I think they’re hearing you, and they’re going, “I think I know that name, I think I’ve heard that church.” Where is your church my friend?

Kelly: Faith Church is on the corner of 81st in Memorial, we’re on the North East corner right next to QuickTrip. It’s a new campus for us, and everything is going great. It’s a great location, great place.

Clay: Now, we’re talking today about how to have a great marriage, and specifically seven observations for creating a great marriage. For people who are wanting to great marriage—That’s not me I don’t want to have a great marriage, I like it the way it is. If you want to have a great marriage, or you want to have great family, or if you’re looking for a great church. Why should people come out, and check out your church for the first time?

Kelly: Well, there’s a lot of great people there, and we can help you learn principles from the word of God. Every service we have a great time of prayer, and I don’t think we’ve ever done a service there that we don’t use the bible as some sort of reference. It’s a great place, you get a great cup of coffee, great music, great people, great pastor, and it’s just great.

Clay: Man you look beautiful too.

Kelly: [laughs]

Clay: It’s a place for a beautiful pastor, and a great church. We’re talking about principle number five, its observation number five which is the debt, and the debtor marriage. What are you talking about pastor?

Kelly: Well we’ve talked about here the I marriage, and we’ve talked about how marriage can be centered upon what we want in what our expectations are, and what our demands are. This is kind of the third pitfall in that, and it is a, what we would call a debt-debtor marriage. That is just– When I come to that understanding that I convince my wife that she owes me-

Clay: She owes me.

Kelly: -you’re supposed to do this, you’re supposed to be my provider, you’re supposed to clean the house, you’re supposed to be the one who does the laundry, you’re supposed to take care of money. I go to work all day, I work hard-

Clay: I work hard all day, all day.

Kelly: -I come home at night; I just want someone to be kind, nice, sweet to me, and maybe even romantic. You owe me–

Clay: No.

Kelly: That’s the key phrase there is you owe me.

Clay: He’s a pastor, he can’t say what I want to say? But I’m going to emphasize that romantic part. I’m just going to say that men you’re listening to the show, and you’re going, “All I’m looking for is nonstop romance, that’s all I’m asking for is intimacy–“

Vanessa: Maybe sex.

Clay: What now? See–

Vanessa: The girls are looking for the romance, right? The guys–

Clay: I am using code words–

Kelly: Those are different things? I didn’t–

Clay: I am using code words, because I am a man– This is a family show, and I’m using clean word, you’re the one there being dirty.

Vanessa: I’m all about that.

Clay: People on Facebook live, she is over there in that dirty section.

Kelly: [laughs]

Clay: Anyway let’s talk about this. Vans I want to have you unpack this, okay?

Vanessa: Yes.

Clay: So there debt-debtor marriage, where are people getting it wrong? What have you learnt through 15 years of marriage? Talk to us.

Vanessa: The good news is I don’t think that we have done that, which is good, I’m very thankful. You’ve never been like, “Hey I do this.” But what I’m saying the principle is you would never be able to fulfill that debt. Because there’s always going to be– the thing is, I remember before I married Clay, I remember your mum asked me, ‘Why do you want to marry Clay?’

Clay: Why?

Vanessa: She would tell me that– this makes me feel good, this is a win for Vanessa.

Kelly: We have all wondered that though.

Vanessa: I told her, I said-

Clay: His beauty is amazing.

Vanessa: -I want to make him have the best life possible. She looked at me and she goes, “Okay I’d like you to marry my son.”

Kelly: [laughs] yes, good answer.

Vanessa: But this is the thing, it should be about, how can I please that other person? What can I do to serve that other person? I know in our marriage, it hasn’t been stereotypical at maybe how– because its maybe I was serving by writing checks to dj’s until three in the morning till he came back. But I was like, “That’s what he’s asking me to do.”

Maybe we didn’t have the typical, but it worked for us. It was never like, “I did that, so now you need to do this.” But if we did it wouldn’t either way that you could never fulfill the debts either way, because you know why? When you’re looking at a debt, you’re looking at your own side, you’re never looking at the other persons side.

Kelly: I tell you especially in our society today, when we look around, when we watch television, the things our kids watch, and just the programs that we watch on television they’re all against that. It is what can you do for me? The Janet Jackson’s song what have you done for me lately?–

Clay: what have you done for me that make me go–?

Kelly: That’s one of the concept that we have in life, and in marriage. You have to perform for me.

Vanessa: Yes, and I think that for a husband and wife, a couple is constantly thinking, “What can I do to serve the other person?” It just it makes it sickle close so the other person automatically receives one [inaudible] the problem– The only thing I can see tripping up is if someone becomes so eye focused that you have one person serving, and than the other person–

Clay: I’m going to brag on myself here Thrivers.

Vanessa: That’s the only– You have to you, know when you get to the last one you got to call the Jesus. [laughs]

Clay: I want to brag on myself here, because I am not awesome. But every once in a while I do swing, and I do hit the ball–

But my kids and I we go to the mall out there we go to the mall, we’re doing mall stuff and it’s a deal where you to the mall Vanessa says we’re going to do family photos. Okay family photos and so my wife she goes, “Babe, you can wear whatever you want for family photo. I’m like what, I don’t have to wear that stupid sweater every man in America has to? Every man in America has to wear the same sweater his wife wears.

Vanessa: But you may have to wear the same sweater because there was one year my mum had to buy you a sweater.

Clay: I wanted to shoot myself by there wasn’t a weapon and I was afraid of death but the thing was that I would not have found it. I’m saying so anyway Vanessa let me wear what that I want.

Vanessa: I said Jersey, wear sweats, or wear suit whatever you’re comfortable in just please be at the picture.

Clay: Then I went out there like a diver. [Laughter] I got her some dark as the dark chocolate with the almonds. That’s right and so I did that would tell you I did that and I don’t want to give you all my secrets but there are some gifts I purchased and they might or might have been for herself, not so much myself and so the thing is she started the catalyst, she started. She’s the one who started the positive mojo. She’s the one who said you get to wear whatever you want as the guy in the family photo that’s like am I in heaven? This is so good and then I was like I got to outdo her and it became a positive thing. She started the catalyst all right, tried to over deliver and that is why things are going great right now.

Vanessa: One more thing I think that always come back to again you’ve got to recognize as a person who you are married to and let them fully be themselves. Like I said the first year that we did a family photo, this was years ago before we had any kids so my mom brought a sweater and asked Clay to wear it.

Clay: I was terrible.

Vanessa: Again it injured his soul right? I’m saying he had to be able to be freely who he is as a person but at the same time I had to be free as you know what? This is important for me to have photos. We were I would argue on and not care but–

Clay: If you have a good look at or a big smile.

Vanessa: They turned awesome, they turned out awesome even what he was wearing they went above and beyond. Can I tell them?

Clay: Yes sure.

Vanessa: Okay so the kids were so cue. They got back and I said I expected him to just wear jerseys and a sweats or to be sharp in a suit I do not know, and the kids went mum, dad went to he was so excited he went to a mall and bought a 9.98 Navy’s sweat shirt.

Clay: $9.98

Vanessa: Embroiled, got parts on it and it just happened to match everything around and this is what he did. He never does this and he goes and he bought jeans for himself at the mall. [Laughter] he never wears jeans and I was like she goes he did that for you, mum. I was like oh my God he didn’t have to do that. He never said anything to me about it but the kids did. What all saying is to go above and beyond in the serve at the same time, he was able to freely be himself, I could be myself. You’ve got what–

Clay: What would you advice couple that are listening right now who have decided to go below and under? They’ve done in a negative circle man.

Kelly: Here is the biggest thing, quit, keeping score. Quit, keeping score on your spouse. How many times have they done this and how many times have I done that? What happens is that when I’m in a pattern of doing the wrong thing, then I’m going to keep score how many times my spouse has done so go back and say so here in the last month, you did this, and this and this so you got to forgive me for what I did.

Vanessa: For now you sound like you’re fighting.

Kelly: Quit keeping score. I mean and that’s what we’re going to get to in this point that we talk about. That’s the biggest thing is don’t keep score of what is going on in your life and in your marriage. Quit trying to play the game and just be a couple and love each other.

Clay: I got to tell you I wasn’t keeping score but I noticed is that you didn’t make dinner for me and so I– I volunteered to be a bowling league every night for the next month just totally. I joke about this because I seriously there’s years ago I was working with a business couching client and their marriage was just in the absolute toilet and he hate it because you’re in business you’re just trying to help him grow their business. But he would come in and he was like how are you Clay?

Doing good. How are you guys doing? I tell you what, I swear she’s going to be late because she is always late. You’re always– see this subtle attacks of each other and you’re like I’m just a business coach, I don’t know anything about marriage and so Pastor Kelly for people who want to know more about how to get their marriage in the right position, and maybe they want to know more beyond this show. How could found out more about your church my friend?

Kelly: Well, you can go on our website and it’ll give you a round down of what our church is and just stop by some Sunday morning at 10:30 and we are going to be doing here coming up in January we are a series dedicating the whole month to marriage. You can make plans and come by during that time I’d be great.

Clay: Thrivers if you want to dedicate this month this, month of December, and make it a month to remember. If you want to say I love you, what better way to say I love you than with a gift of baked beans? You want to go to Oklahoma Joe’s and get those world best baked beans. You get into that store you get those burnt ends, you get that meat, maybe she’s organic, maybe she doesn’t like meat but if you buy her enough meat from Oklahoma Joe’s, over time she may turn into a non-vegan.

You want to go to Oklahoma Joe’s check it out there folks and all sincerity so this is a Thrive time show and you don’t want to go away because when we come back, we are going to get into the next marriage observation. It’s a game changer you do not want to miss out. Stay tuned.

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Presenter: You’re listening to the Thrive time show on talk radio 1170.

Clay: All right Thrive nations and Oklahomies dream country, welcome back to the Thrive time show where we are broadcasting in a box that rocks, which is located in a friendly confines of the world headquarters which is located in Oklahoma, which is located in the center of the universe, which is located in the middle of the galaxy, which is located now on your radio. My name is Clay Clark, I’m the former SBA entrepreneur of the year sit here to teach you how to grow a successful business. [Inaudible 00:07:00] because you deserve a holistic approach.

Many of you reached out and said, I want to have a successful marriage and I understand, I’ve been on my Google search and I’ve looked at your disgusting face and I know that you’re not a beautiful man and I’ve discovered that your wife is a beautiful lady and I don’t get it, it makes no sense. It’s now possible how is it possible that you’re still married for 15 years? I decided to bring the queen on the show. It’s my incredible wife for 15 years Mrs. Vanessa Clark. How are you?

Vanessa: Great that’s a grand introduction the queen, thank you.

Clay: The queen, how long have you been totally blind? [Laughter]

Vanessa: There is a hell on being the queen [laughter]

Clay: Then we also we have someone on the show today. I tell you what, if you’re on facebook live right now, you’d be blinded by the beauty of this man. He’s pastor Kelly Goins is the pastor of faith Church. Sir, how are you?

Kelly: I’m doing great, I’m doing great. I am honored to be here between two celebrities.

Clay: We’re talking today about something that is super exciting and for me I mean we are talking about the seven observations for creating a great marriage and you’ve been counseling couples for years. Have you seen some predictable– I mean you’ve seen the couple that come for marriage counseling and he is totally checked out. Have you seen that?

Kelly: Yes. I’ve seen the crocodile tears and people trying to cry and create tears because they do not come out. I’ve seen everything.

Clay: tell me how’s everything, tell me about your marriage. Our marriage is fine, everything is perfect, I don’t know what’s wrong with her. You’ve seen that right?

Kelly: I have, I’ve seen some good ones too. I had a couple that I had counseled, pre-marital counseling. I got them already, and they went on for the honey moon and when they got back this is a great one. When they got back I got the guy aside and said so man how did things go back at honey moon? He said all that I can say is that I’m glad there weren’t sprinklers in that room because we got to set them off [laughter].

Clay: Wow, that’s what great marriage counseling is all about right there. Now here’s the deal, we are talking about your observations from your career. We’ve seen some things that have happened and what are the observations? We are on observation number six and so, what‘s the biblical view of marriage? Now real quick a fun factor one inside you because we have half the listeners here who are listening are going, I don’t believe in God at all, and the other half say I do believe in God.

So saying kept my hand unbiased as fun fact from USA today, 59% of americans believe in hell. 59% but I’m going to tell you this, I believe and everybody listening right now, you believe in having a great marriage and there are principles in the bible that are universal principles that when applied it been show to consistently to be effective. Now we are people of faith my wife and I and then pastor Goins, pastor Goins go and educate us, so whats the biblical view of marriage?

Kelly: Well, I think probably when you‘re in a church or in a counseling situation and they start talking about marriage.

Eventually they are going to go to this scripture in Ephesians the 5th chapter and this is the famous scripture that says, ” Wives submit to yourselves to your husbands,” you know it splits denominations and causes lots of problems. I even had– I did a wedding one time over here at Tarp Chapel and I went back to see the bride –

Vanessa: That’s where we got married by the way.

Kelly: Is it really?

Vanessa: Yeah I had to put that in there.

Kelly: Maybe it was you guys? [chuckles] no, I went back to see the bride before the ceremony. She said,” Okay, listen, you’re going to read that scripture but don’t read that part about submit yourself to your husband-

Vanessa: [chuckles] She’s all prepared.

Clay: Wow.

Kelly: I don’t want you to read that.” I said, ” Okay, you’re paying for it, fine.” So I go back to get with the groom and pray with him and he says, ” Now, listen one thing that I want to make sure that you read is that.” What do I do? You know?

Vanessa: [Chuckles] Cracking me up.

Kelly: I want you to read the about submitting-


Vanessa: They need like an emergency premarital counselling right there.

Kelly: Yeah I knew him longer than I knew her so I put it in. It made her mad you know-

Clay: Poor man.

Kelly: They spent their honeymoon in different locations but that wasn’t my fault.

Clay: Wow.

Kelly: But anyway this one scripture is the kind of the scripture that everybody goes to but here’s the thing, and this is– I’ll get into a little bit of bible study here-

Clay: Here we go

Kelly: Bibles– most bibles and you can see the bible that I have if you’re looking on-

Clay: Facebook live.

Kelly: They’ll have little headings above different sections and in my bible here specifically that heading starts at verse 22 and here’s what it says, “Wives submit yourselves to your husbands as unto the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife,” then it goes on from there. Actually what they are doing now is that some translations are screwing that up just one verse because if you screwed it up to verse 21-

Vanessa: The heading?

Kelly: -and this is -yes the heading and this is – Ephesians the fifth chapter the 21st verse, this is where the pause lies and this is what you need to read into because this one verse sets everything else. It says this,” Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Now why is that so important to this whole thing? Because when we get into these verses that say wives submit yourselves to your husbands and husbands love your wives, the overriding verse in this is this one thing.”

Submit yourselves to one another.” And that’s a huge verse right there but the next part is even bigger, ” Out of reverence to Christ.” So what we do is we say,”Okay, because Christ has done so much for me and because I love him so much, because I am so committed to him, that I take all of that love and gratitude and praise and worship that I have in my life and I pour it into my spouse solely and completely out of reverence to Christ I’m going to honor him.

Vanessa: And you know what I think is so amazing about that? When you do that out of reverence for Christ he in turn will work in your marriage-

Kelly: Exactly.

Vanessa: – and do things to each others hearts.

Clay: Okay, okay we have someone listening right now whose going,” Hocus pocus, all this discussion of Jesus and all this stuff. What if I don’t believe in Jesus? Why should I submit to my wife who by the way owes me?

Vanessa: Okay so this is what I want to say, it’s just like I said earlier how we were talking about the desire to serve a spouse and then they in turn serve you and that works great when you are serving them and they are serving you, and you are serving them and they — and it keeps going on. But it will always fail when one person is serving and serving and serving and the other is just taking and taking and taking. That’s why it has to be mutual submission. If you pray to Allah, if you pray to Jesus, if you pray to whoever it is the principal right there. If you pray to Jesus though he will also be working in your marriage. And that’s what who is the, I don’t know the special source-

Clay: The mojo.

Vanessa: -the love,yeah i love the Jesus.

Kelly: Here’s the thing, a lot of people want to say well the bible wants to control me, God wants to control me so I’ve got all these rules in the bible that he wants me to do. I don’t want to do them. Here’s the thing, because God created us and you can interpret God however you want to interpret God. Because God created us the bible is a textbook that helps us live life. It’s not that he wants to control us but he knows who we are and he’s giving us instructions about how we can live our lives the best. Okay throw the bible out of it, if you can do nothing more but to invest in your spouse, that’s all you do.

Your one intention is to make them happy, is to please them, is to make sure that they are taken care of. And they do the same to you.Then what’s going to happen is you are going to have an incredibly successful marriage whether you use the word of God or not. Now that happens to be in the word of God, but that is where we learn this but if you’ll take that principal on your own you will have a successful marriage.

Clay: If you peaked my interest a little bit . Okay I want to know more about marriage, how to have a great marriage. How can I find out more during the month of January at your church.

Kelly: We are doing a series on marriage called passion during the month of January and we want you to come every Sunday. My wife and I will be teaching and talking about marriage we’ve been married for 25 years, we’ve four kids of our own.

Clay: Wow.

Kelly: And we’ve got a very successful marriage and we want to share with you that to help you have the greatest marriage you possibly can.

Clay: Now thrivers, if you are listening today for the first time and you’re going,” Is this always a show about marriage?” Now it’s a show about how to have a successful life how to grow a successful business, it’s we are typically talking about business without business school, without the bs. But today, we are talking about how to have a successful life and how to have a successful marriage. We come back, we have another observation from the pastor.


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Presenter: Live, local, now. you’re listening to the thrive time show on talk radio 1170

Clay: Alright thrive nation welcome back to Tulsa’s only local business show where we talk about business school without the bs and occasionally what will happen is we will talk about how to have a successful marriage, we’ll talk about these things that don’t relate to a business necessarily but we at the thrive time show we are committed to helping you have a successful life and so today’s [unintelligible] that we have an incredible guest on the show — we have two guests on the show today and I’m excited about it because I know there’s many people listening who are going. It is true I want to have a successful business, and it is true that I have a successful business.

But my marriage, I mean under the hood,see that’s — wait wait wait — my car looks good, your car looks good, your business car, your business vehicle that looks good. But under the hood, it ain’t so good, you know you’re under the hood going.” Oh noo, this is not good.” And so you look happy, you’re happy McHappison, you’re just running around just looking great, you’re winning business awards, you’re having success but under the hood things aren’t so good. If that’s you and you’re in your car right now with your significant other or you’re at work just look ahead and smile no one will know.

But here’s the thing is we’re talking to you specifically, we want to help you take your marriage to the next level. So I brought on my incredible wife of 15 years Mrs Vanessa Clark and we brought on a pastor, Pastor Kelly Gowins and Pastor Kelly we are talking today about the seven observations that you’ve had from a career in ministry, about how to have a great marriage and it’s observation number seven it’s called the leash, what are we talking about?unleash the leash.

Kelly: Well the principal that we’ve just talked about just before kind of flows into this because it was talking about putting God in the center of our marriage and putting our spouses as the sole recipient of our love. now the push back from that is that people say, “Well hang on, you don’t know what my husband’s like you don’t know what my wife is like. If I give her a little bit, before you know it, you know if I compliment her just a little bit she’s out there spending money and doing all kind of stuff. With my husband if I tell him that he’s done something good before you know it hes laying around watching TV [crosstalk] and drinking beer.

Clay: The other night I complimented her, the other night I complimented her one time I come home and all of a sudden she’s got a new coach handbag, she had a new Louise Vuitton all that stuff and she’s on the Facebook talking about all the new iPads she’s buying. I don’t even know, you can’t even say something nice to women anymore Pastor Kelly.

Kelly: Well and that’s where a lot marriages are, you know I’ll give a little bit more leash and then I’ll see what you do with that and if you — I’ll give you a budget. I know guys that give their wives budgets, you can only spend-

Vanessa: I know these wives — not me but I know these wives.

Kelly: – you can only spend this much money and if it’s over that you can come and ask me permission and if you do good with that I’ll give you a little bit more. And we do that in our marriage and we leash that out thinking that I can’t trust them and I always have to guide them. I have to hold them onto a leash but the thing is is that what happens is that you’re not — that’s not a marriage that’s parenting. And so you’re not married to somebody you’re wanting to be their mum you’re wanting to be their dad. You’re still wanting to control them.

Vanessa: And I think-

-It’s so vital what you said earlier about putting God at the center. When we are submitting out of reverence to God, that’s when the magic happens because he will go—it comes back to this verse, “vengeance is mine” says the Lord. I know we’re not talking about vengeance here but there-

Clay: Sure.

Vanessa: There has been maybe things are always hurt with our friendship or whatever and I said you know what Lord I’m just going to take my hands off. I’m going to forgive because you have forgiven me. God always deals with that person way far better than I ever could and I feel like when we take our hands off our spouse and we say, we’re going to submit out of love for Jesus and we serve our spouse. God does such a work in there, that it’s like its magic. I don’t know how to explain it.

Clay: For somebody is listening here says, “I will let the Lord do his work after I chastiser publicly” after I totally you have my vengeance I’ll let the Lord have his vengeance but first I want to have mine. For somebody out there who’s really doing the doing the points system right now, they’re trying to get even with their spouse. Their point is games, what advice would encourage. What do you have for them?

Kelly: It just goes along with what we’ve just been talking about. You have to come to the point where you throw the leash down. You’ve got to—the box that we talked about in the very first segment with all of our expectations and the things that we want in marriage turn it over. Get rid of all your expectations, cash it all in, be completely 100% in love with that person and give them your heart.

Vanessa: Accept that it’s out of your control, you cannot change them. They cannot change you and stop fighting that. You be the best you can be, they’ll be the best they can be and God will do the rest if you give it to him and let him do it but take your hands off like you said.

Kelly: There is no guarantee–

Vanessa: That’s right.

Kelly: That when you turn it all over that that spouse will turn around. There is no guarantee to do that but here’s the thing-

Vanessa: This is where I like to go with you because I’m like just give it time and keep going to God because every single prayer I have ever given to God, he has never let me down on. It might not have happened in my timing or how I thought it would but if I stayed on Him. If I kept praying and saying Jesus I give this to you, he’s Oh yes.

Clay: I have a fun fact that I will pass [inaudible 00:02:08] observation.

Kelly: Here’s what love is, love is me giving everything to my wife without the expectation of her giving it back to me. I never completely know but love is all the risk because here’s the thing. at one point Christ decided to die on a cross and sacrifice everything to give the choice at some point to serve him. There was no guarantees that I would. There was no guarantees that I would ever or you would ever decide to do that but he laid it all, he cast it all in. he turned it all over to give us that choice and that option so if he’s willing to do that for me, then I am willing to do that for my spouse.

Clay: I have a business fact for you guys. If one business fact, it’s a business school I used to be at. Here’s a fun business fact. If you want to keep half of your money, you don’t want to get a divorce. This is a fun fact about Elon Musk he’s a billionaire but the guy got divorced to the same woman twice, so he’ the guy who started PayPal, he started space sex, he started tesla. He gets married, then he gets a divorce so then he gets remarried about a year and a half later and again he gets divorced.

I’m just telling you Thrivers if you’re listening right now and you want to keep half of that money if you’re just enjoying like, all I care about is business. Well you want to have a great marriage and then you might just mess up and have a great life so Thrivers when we come back we’re going to do a recap of these seven observation and pastor Kelly is going to tell us about a great sermon series he has coming out next month.

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Presenter: You are listening to the Thrive Time Show. On Talk Radio 11-70.

Clay: All right thrive nation, welcome back to the thrive time show, the place that you can go to learn how to start a really successful business. I’m laughing because off air we have on the show today; we have this unbelievable chemistry I’m telling you. We have pastor Goins on the show and things are always flowing when we have on pastor Kelly. We have my incredible wife of 15 years Mrs. Vanessa Clark and off the air they’re ragging me because here’s the deal. This is the time—every time the weather changes at all, i immediately get this allergy deal but if you know me you know that I’m like the Bret far of a business. I do not take sick days, so a couple years ago I totally tore ligaments in my ankle. My wife was like foot, will swell up to the size of an elephant foot.

Vanessa: True.

Clay: I just kept coming to work and you know what I do? Anytime I’m having any type of pain at all-

Vanessa: Any pain.

Clay: I take Dayquil and my wife is going there is a warning on there that says– what was the warning you were saying?

Vanessa: It was something you took the other day because I get worried about you, I’m your wife and you’re like you know how I am with chemicals.

Kelly: What’s the alcohol content of that?

Vanessa: The thing you took the other day, they were those effervescent pills. It said beware about excessive stomach bleeding.

Clay: Oh my gosh.

Vanessa: Because he was drinking this stuff like candy.

Clay: I’m not drinking like candy; I’m just trying to stay my guts thrivers-

Vanessa: I know, I know. I’m trying to keep you alive.

Clay: Thrivers this is how the show would be if I didn’t do this. This is a sacrifice that I make for you to listen. I know it sound a bit, welcome to the thrive time show. You wouldn’t want to listen to that, I know you don’t want to have like a nasal buffet on the show.

Vanessa: They appreciate you taking your stuff. The appreciate it and we’re just watching out for you.

Clay: Guys listen to this. I’m 36 and if I make it to 38 I’m doing great. That’s all I’m saying, I’m just trying to make it two more years, I ’ma drop the mick, hope into the little box, go under the ground, go see the good Lord. Which is right around the pastor here if the things in too early-

Vanessa: No I’m going to be juicing them up, feed him the beets, the carrots, the ginger, he’s getting all that. You’re living you’ve got to at least go to 80.

Clay: I’m just saying if it’s my time and I had to die, I would want to die in this box that rocks. With you my incredible wife, the pastor is right here he could go.

Kelly: Yes I could burry you.

Clay: You give me last flight right here, Sam the man’s here, Andrew the super producer they’re all in the house. Now we’re talking today about how to have a great marriage and I’m telling you what pastor Goins has been—how long have you been in ministry my friend?

Kelly: I’ve been in ministry about 38 years.

Clay: We’re going to go through a recap of your seven observations for creating a great marriage.

Kelly: Got it.

Clay: We’re going to go, it’s the speed round okay.

Kelly: Okay.

Clay: We’re looking for a quick summary of each one of these observations.

Kelly: Good.

Clay: Observation number one, understand the difference between desire versus expectations go.

Kelly: At some point between the marriage and the time you get home from your honeymoon your expectations and your desires collide and what you expecting something is that actually what’s coming out of it and you’ve got to figure out how I’m I going to compromise that and how I’m going to fix that.

Clay: I’ll tell you what thrivers if you want to know how to fix that, you want to take your marriage to the next level. How could they learn more about you?

Kelly: Hey you could come; we’re getting ready to do a series in the month of January, every Sunday in the month of January we’re doing the series on marriage. Come because you’ll get some great practical wisdom about how to make your marriage the very best you can. We’re faith church; we’re located 81st of memorial the North East corner right next to quick trip and big sign that say Faith church. We would love to have you guys come.

Clay: If you can’t make it out to his service about sorry about two o’clock on Sundays I have a little group we get together at quick trip right next to your church there at 81st in memorial and it’s called how to trick a mega hot wife into staying married to you for 15 years and we serve free Tacitus.

Kelly: That’s the secret.

Clay: No.

Kelly: That’s what it is.

Clay: If you seriously want to learn how to take your marriage to the next level, what time does your church service start on Sundays?

Kelly: 10:30 and we’ll be out by two I promise.

Clay: Yes you have by two o’clock and you can get over to my—it’s like a camp fire series. We usually will get a camp fire going on there. They have that net area where you can get the free you can air up your tires for free. We’re out hanging out right there.

Kelly: This could be a lot of hot air there Is that what you’re saying?

Clay: [Laughs] we’re hot there and I’m just like guys.

Kelly: will there be nightquil there or Dayquil?

Vanessa: [inaudible 00:08:45] the nightclub?

Clay: There are three ways to trick your mega hot wife into staying married, let’s go get some Tacitus okay, this woman I know. Observation number two, what is that? Observation number two is your desires become expectations.

Kelly: Your desires become expectations. In some point you’ve got to come to that realization of how I’m I going to work this thing out. How I’m I going to be the husband and the wife that I need to be and those things have to collide and you’ve got to figure out how to do this. Then we talk about the three pitfalls.

Clay: Let me tell you this thrivers, if you want to become the husband and wife you want to be. that’s a different show, this is not a transgender show no. He’s not advocating this, if you’re getting confused. If you’re listening and you’re going did he just advocate becoming the husband and wife I’m supposed to be? No, no that’s not what he meant there. That’s now what we’re talking about, it’s not the church he has there. Now principle number three, okay. I’m sure its number three and this is more of a pitfall. This is something you don’t want to do. You don’t want to come to my camp fire events at two o’clock at quick trip after his church and the pitfall number three here is– what is that my friend.

Kelly: That’s a concur of marriage, that’s the marriage that I have concurred my spouse and I’ve won. I’ve beat them into submission, now they’re the person I want them to be but the problem is that you may have won the battle but you lost the war, because intimacy and love-

-goes out the window,now that person is just performing for you at your beck and call.

Clay: And you’re going to be living in a van down by the river by yourself?

Kelly: Yes. Sleeping on the couch, baby.

Clay: Not good. Now, we’re moving on here. This is our observation number four from a man who has been doing marriage counseling for more years than many of you have been alive. This is observation number for. Compromise marriage, what’s that?

Kelly: That’s the compromise marriage. That’s when we decide we’re going to live separate lives and that’s the only way we can get together. You do your thing. I’ll do mine. I’ll spend time with my friends. You will spend time with your friends, and it’s like two ships passing in the night. You’ll never come together.

Vanessa: It’s almost like they gave up on trying to be together.

Clay: Sure. I’m going to be in–

Kelly: We are stuck in this marriage because we got kids. We got to stay together.

Clay: And we got this shared car we signed up for the bowling league together and we got this auto charge we can’t get out of it we got to finish the league together before we go our separate ways, basically. All right, so moving on here to observation number five. This is our observation number five. Pastor this observation number five… talk to me about this observation number five. Why does this debtor marriage is debtor not work.

Kelly: It doesn’t work because again it’s a you owe me. It’s a guilt trip. You owe me because I’ve done all this for you. I take care of the house. I take care of the kids. You owe me money. Or the husband comes home and says, “I work and I do all this kind of stuff. You owe me affection and love,” and so it becomes a debt debtor marriage where again, I concur you, I own you, and we keep score of whatever one’s doing, and it’s not a successful marriage.

Clay: I’m telling these thrivers, if you’re listening right now and you’re going, “Men, this is getting good here. This is just starting to get hot. I like how they are mixing it up like this. Well, we getting into this next one. This is one that is pretty hot. This is a business and intense one here. This is one you want to maybe write this down here. So this is observation number. What’s the biblical view of marriage my friend? What is it?

Kelly: It is Ephesians, the fifth chapter 21st verse, where it says, “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” The concept is that I take all the love and affection and fidelity and ingratitude that I have for Christ because if his life changed my life, because he forgave me my sins. He gave me new start. And I take all that affection and I dump it into one person, and that one person is my spouse. When I have one single priority and that’s loving her, loving that spouse. If I have that one single obligation of putting all my love to them, then that’s when marriage stops becoming about me and starts becoming about we.

Clay: Moving on to observation number seven. Observation number seven. This is from a man who knows how to get directly to heaven. It’s Pastor Goins. The leash.

Kelly: In this last one is the leash. And that’s just when you get pushed back with this. If I give her all of that, then pretty soon she’s going to take advantage of it. If I put all my love in her, then she’s never going to give any of it back to me, and that’s a leash that we’ve got our spouse on a leash, and we divvy a little bit more of it out. That’s not marriage. That’s parenting. The thing is with that is that you have to let go of the leash. You’ve got to throw your love down. You have to throw your life down. You got to empty the box. You’ve got to give them everything in trust that it is going to work and that God is going to work out this marriage in a good way.

Clay: Thrivers, if you’re listening right now today, you have three options that you can take. You have three options that you can take. It’s just three moves. Three– consider it like it’s a fog in the road, but it’s like a super foggy at three different options you can take here.

One is you can listen to today’s program and you could do nothing. You can just go, “That was something. I was– it was something. I really enjoyed various aspects of the show. It educated me. I don’t want to do anything with it, but it was something I could do, that I could listen to like a Ted talk, basically.” Pastor Goes, if they want to get involved in your church, or learn more about taking their marriage to the next level, what can they do?

Kelly: We’ve got a great church, and all the month of January we’re going to be doing a sermon series on Sunday mornings at ten-thirty, just dealing specifically with marriage and relationships. You can come and sit. Have a great cup of coffee. Enjoy some great music, some great people.

Vanessa: Where are you located and what’s the name of your church again?

Kelly: Faith Church 81st to Memorial. We are on the northeast corner right next to quit trip, and we would love to have you come by on Sundays at ten-thirty.

Clay: And thrivers, or you could use option number two. You can go to It’s the world’s best business school. The world’s best online business coaching platform, and for 19 bucks a month, you can learn everything you’ve ever wanted to know about how to have success in the world of business. And because we have generous investors. We have a scholarship program that makes it affordable for anybody. Literally, if you’re going, “If I have one dollar a month I can do it?”

You can set your own price. “I can set my own price?” You can set your own price. Or option three you can book a interactive business workshop, or one-on-one mentorship. A workshop or one-on-one mentorship. It’s all available for you. Those are your three options. I’m going to tell you what thrivers. We care enough about you and we care so much that we ask you to share. Go to Go to

Click on the day’s archived radio show, AKA podcast. Share with a friend or family member, and help them improve their life by 2% or 4%. On tomorrow’s show, you’re not going to want to miss out because tomorrow show is one of those shows you’re going to mark the calendar for it. It’s a game changer, and I’m just I’m just telling you what, tomorrow’s show is going to help you take your business game to the next level.

[01:25:31] [END OF AUDIO]


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