Pt 2: Setting Up the Proper Legal Entity for Churches – Ask Clay Anything

Show Notes

Pastor Jessi Gibson of River City Church gets an opportunity to ask Clay Clark, Doctor Zoellner and Wes Carter (The law firm of choice for Pastor Craig Groeschel, Pastor T.D. Jakes, Pastor Joyce Meyers, etc.) her church-based legal questions.

Business Questions for Z:

  1. How would you run a church staff if you were in charge?
    1. Z – A challenge of churches is that you are working with volunteers. Paying someone there is a firm agreement and expectations are set. When dealing with volunteers make sure to set the expectations before the persons accepts responsibility for the volunteer position. Make sure they know all of the details they need to make a proper decision on whether or not they
    2. Clay – NOTABLE QUOTABLE – “Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.” – Colossians 3:23-24
      1. Make sure that your volunteers understand that they are not working for but rather they are working for the Lord.
    3. Wes Carter – Keep your own house in order if you are going to preach to others about their lives.

 

Legal questions for Wes Carter of www.wintersking.com:

  1. What is the proper way to set a pastor’s compensation package?
    1. Wes – Set the amount and package through a board that includes no conflicts of interest. No friends, partners or family on the board or making the decisions.
      1. Set the clergy housing allowance properly to take maximum advantage of the tax laws.
      2. It has to be what is considered “reasonable” compared to other churches with similar size and similar location.
    2. Clay – If you are a pastor you are most likely underpaying yourself right now and then you will have to try and make up the money as your career comes closer to its end and that is where you can get in trouble. Pay yourself a reasonable base from the beginning and then visit www.wintersking.com and talk to Wes Carter for more info.

 

Business Coach | Ask Clay & Z Anything

Audio Transcription

Attend the world’s best business workshop, led by america’s number one business coaching for free by subscribing on itunes and leaving us an objective review, claim your tickets by emailing as proof that you did it and your contact information to info at drivetime show.Com. Alright, you welcome back to the thrive time show on your exclusive podcast download heard of a church called life church life church. Have you heard of td jakes? Yes, I have I really I really like i, really like both of them by the way? Yes i. Have you already asked me that, but yes, I am I asked the first time i, look at you when I see for the invitation you can you bring that question back around an hour into a position. I have to I know it’s so fun:church, joyce, meyer, td, jakes, single Sunday, listen to pastor, brian or pastor jesse. That’s why I move into pastor jesse inside the box that runs into the man cave studio I’m super excited pastor, Jesse and pastor jesse your church. How long have you been a pastor and I’ve been a pastor for 15 years? So you get to ask wes carter the attorney for life church and he’s big ministry any question you could possibly have for dr. Z who I last time we counted. Last time we did a research on this you’ve never done cuz. You’ve never been a pastor, have no experience providing any legal advice for business coaching churches, but at the same time you run multiple successful organizations in many different niches, so I’m excited to see really. Who is widow? Does she know i, don’t know i, don’t know, i, don’t know we don’t know what you’re going to have. So this is completely out of box. What’s your first question, patrick thank you. I do believe in you. I can feel it on facebook.. I would like to know. If you had it your way at your church will be fine. You can eat the staff of that church could be run, for instance like a business like a family or any other way that you would so choose to. Let me know what you would change about the way that a church staff or how you would see fit to run that church, that, if you were in charge of the challenges of church, is that several the people that are will call on staff and volunteers and I think there’s a different mindset with a volunteer than coming to getting paid for it and then again, maybe there’s not going to break that I’ll break that down for you, okay, when you’re paying someone you have a firm agreement, I mean you should like right, hire an employee.

They know what they think. There’s no surprise there, like i, was going to get paid more than that. So you know I mean I thought I was getting paid on tuesday instead of friday, we give a firm agreement and here’s your job title. Here’s your checklist! Here’s what you need to do here, but I’m expecting out of you. Okay, so there’s a there’s! There’s a firm! You know hate this. When I expect this, what you can do on the inspector I expect and we’re going to have an agreement. Volunteers can be sometimes a little different than that, just hey. We need someone to help in the bookstore. You know thanks for helping and you just kind of assumed, sometimes what they’re supposed to be doing. I e stand behind the business coaching register. Checking people out, maybe helping with information. When someone comes in trying to find a book or a son, whatever you selling a book i, don’t give a bookstore now I’m just making that but you’re there, volunteering so sometimes they’re like when I thought. That’s what I’m supposed to do so I think sometimes there’s a disconnect when you have volunteer to maybe have the same kind of formula with them and then here’s your job description, here’s what I expect out of you! Here’s when I expect you and here’s what you’re signing up for so don’t sign up for it.

If you’re not going to sign up for these things, okay and I think in a church that might be. You know what to think when I see I say when I see you and I have actually talked to different ministers and pastors and I and I’ve made business and now I geez about the church. They just kind of some of the pump the brakes gobo we’re not going to run this like a business is not going to ruin. This is the lord’s house and you will not be stealing the lord’s chips and i. Look at them, I just okay! Well, can you write? It may be a little bit more like a business she’s on time. You’ll have people, you know your children’s services will run according the way, they’re supposed to the volunteers are helping out in the information business coaching booth in the book stores are going to be there going to be there do what they’re supposed to do. This is one thing that I admire about church on the move in tulsa oklahoma colossians 3:23 in chap, if you can put them on the on the show notes, colossians 3 2324 says whatever you do work at it with all of your heart as working for the lord and not for humans. Since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the lord as a reward, for you know that you that you will receive an inheritance from the lord not inherited from the church not inherited from your boss, not inherit from your manager but inheritance from the lord as reward it is the lord christ you are serving and I went to christmas train in 2000 and I think it was 2008 or something like that.

I had just become a christian and I was so frustrated that I never go to a church and I said this usher would be fired. My may seriously this brochure person-you would be this praise and worship person, I told vanessa i, like this person, will be fired this this. This kid’s minister person is kids path. I borrow them to these. People are terrible. They suck and they’re not selling vacuums. I’m. Just saying this is a real thing. The last time I went to a church to move christmas, train and I got greeted by somebody, and they said I’m here the parking we parked and apparently parked dying in a diagonal fashion. What they told you where to park and there’s no waiting I said parking is like disney world and then we went in. We were greeted, it was cold, I mean it was probably 20 degrees, see your breath called and every single person said:hey welcome to christmas, train and i. Remember hopped in the car and it again I was raised in the church, wouldn’t believe in god no 2007 I told vanessa. I said these people are not working as unto their boss, they’re working as unto the lord, and it’s the first time, I’ve seen it in a church and I’m salt and that’s why I chose to make that church are home for many many years, because I was so impressed with that and I would just say that any ministry that doesn’t preach colossians, 3, 2324, they’re business coaching volunteers and they allow their volunteers to work as other working into an assistant manager who can’t fire them working as on to anything other than lord i. Just have a hard time with that and that’s again what is impressed me about river city church on my wife and I went out there by 4 weeks ago. We go out there and it was like an army of people greeting, as every single person was so kind, so nice I think of your what’s the what’s the name of the video he’s the dark skinned gentleman who helped provide us a rental car. What’s his name, norman norman norman was so so nice, the kids ministry people are so nice. My kids talked about it and that’s what I’m talking about if it works, if you are truly working as unto the lord in the people at chick-fil-a, I can get it right in a in a company.

That’s how I was a christian mindset, but it’s it’s. A secular business quiktrip can get right on the real quick trip, putting an egg sous on their sign any time recently. Quiktrip convenience stores that I can get it right at southwest airlines and get a ride. I just have like an impossibly high standard and I thought. Your church did a good job of hitting that, but I can’t stand it when churches have volunteers there, a terrible I just wears me out. It was our pleasure. We might think I just been working out. The business mine said I have you can only have quality or quantityattend the world’s best business workshop led by america’s number one business coach for free by subscribing on itunes and leaving us an objective review, claim your tickets by emailing as proof that you did it and your contact information to info at drivetime show.Com. Alright, you welcome back to the thrive time show on your exclusive podcast download heard of a church called life church life church. Have you heard of td jakes? Yes, I have I really I really like i, really like both of them by the way? Yes i. Have you already asked me that, but yes, I am I asked the first time i, look at you when I see for the invitation you can you bring that question back around an hour into a position. I have to I know it’s so fun:church, joyce, meyer, td, jakes, single sunday, listen to pastor, brian or pastor jesse. That’s why I move into pastor jesse inside the box that runs into the man cave studio I’m super excited, pastor, jesse and pastor jesse your church. How long have you been a pastor and I’ve been a pastor for 15 years, so you get to ask wes carter the attorney for life church and he’s big ministry any question you could possibly have for dr. Z who I last time we we we we counted.

Last time we did a research on this you’ve never done cuz. You’ve never been a pastor, have no experience providing any legal advice for churches, but at the same time you run multiple successful organizations in many different niches, so I’m excited to see really. Who is widow? Does she know i, don’t know i, don’t know, i, don’t know we don’t know what you’re going to have. So this is completely out of box. What’s your first question, patrick thank you. I do believe in you. I can feel it on facebook.. I would like to know if you had it your way at your church will be fine. You can eat the staff of that church could be run, for instance like a business like a family or any other way that you would so choose to. Let me know what you would change about the way that a business coaching church staff or how you would see fit to run that church, that, if you were in charge of the challenges of church, is that several the people that are will call on staff and volunteers and I think there’s a different mindset with a volunteer than coming to getting paid for it and then again, maybe there’s not going to break that I’ll break that down for you, okay, when you’re paying someone you have a firm agreement, I mean you should like right, hire an employee. They know what they think. There’s no surprise there, like i, was going to get paid more than that.

So you know I mean I thought I was getting paid on tuesday instead of friday, we give a firm agreement and here’s your job title. Here’s your checklist! Here’s what you need to do here, but I’m expecting out of you, okay, so there’s a there’s! There’s a firm! You know hate this. When I expect this, what you can do on the inspector I expect and we’re going to have an agreement. Volunteers can be sometimes a little different than that. Just hey! We need someone to help in the bookstore. You know thanks for helping and you just kind of assumed, sometimes what they’re supposed to be doing. I e stand behind the register. Checking people out, maybe helping with information. When someone comes in trying to find a book or a son, whatever you selling a book i, don’t give a bookstore now I’m just making that but you’re there, volunteering so sometimes they’re like when I thought. That’s what I’m supposed to do so I think sometimes there’s a disconnect when you have volunteer to maybe have the same kind of formula with them and then here’s your job description, here’s what I expect out of you! Here’s when I expect you and here’s what you’re signing up for so don’t sign up for it. If you’re not going to sign up for these things, okay and I think in a church that might be. You know what to think when I see I say when I see you and I have actually talked to different business coaching ministers and pastors and I and I’ve made business and now I geez about the church. They just kind of some of the pump the brakes gobo we’re not going to run this like a business is not going to ruin. This is the lord’s house and you will not be stealing the lord’s chips and i. Look at them, I just okay! Well, can you write? It may be a little bit more like a business she’s on time. You’ll have people, you know your children’s services will run according the way, they’re supposed to the volunteers are helping out in the information booth in the book stores are going to be there going to be there do what they’re supposed to do. This is one thing that I admire about church on the move in tulsa oklahoma colossians 3:23 in chap, if you can put them on the on the show notes, colossians 3 2324 says whatever you do work at it with all of your heart as working for the lord and not for humans. Since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the lord as a reward for you know that you that you will receive an inheritance from the lord not inherited from the church not inherited from your boss, not inherit from your manager but inheritance from the lord as reward it is the lord christ you are serving and I went to christmas train in 2000 and I think it was 2008 or something like that. I had just become a christian and I was so frustrated that I never go to a church and I said this usher would be fired.

My may seriously this brochure person-you would be this praise and worship person, I told vanessa i, like this person, will be fired this this. This kid’s minister person is kids path. I borrow them to these. People are terrible. They suck and they’re not selling vacuums I’m. Just saying this is a real thing. The last time I went to a church to move christmas, train and I got greeted by somebody and they said I’m here the parking we parked and apparently parked dying in a diagonal fashion. What they told you where to park and there’s no waiting I said parking is like disney world and then we went in. We were greeted, it was cold, I mean it was probably 20 degrees, see your breath called and every single person said:hey welcome to christmas, train and i. Remember hopped in the car and it again I was raised in the church, wouldn’t believe in god no 2007 I told vanessa. I said these people are not working as unto their boss, they’re working as unto the lord, and it’s the first time, I’ve seen it in a church and I’m salt and that’s why I chose to make that church are home for many many years, because I was so impressed with that and I would just say that any ministry that doesn’t preach colossians, 3, 2324 they’re volunteers and they allow their volunteers to work as other working into an assistant manager who can’t fire them working as on to anything other than lord i. Just have a hard time with that, and that’s again what is impressed me about river city church on my wife and I went out there by 4 weeks ago. We go out there and it was like an army of people greeting, as every single person was so kind, so nice I think of your what’s the what’s the name of the video he’s the dark skinned business coaching gentleman who helped provide us a rental car. What’s his name, norman norman norman was so so nice, the kids ministry people are so nice. My kids talked about it and that’s what I’m? Talking about if it works, if you are truly working as unto the lord in the people at chick-fil-a, I can get it right in a in a company. That’s how I was a christian mindset, but it’s it’s. A secular business quiktrip can get right on the real quick trip, putting an egg sous on their sign any time recently. Quiktrip convenience stores that I can get it right at southwest airlines and get a ride. I just have like an impossibly high standard and I thought. Your church did a good job of hitting that, but I can’t stand it.

When churches have volunteers there, a terrible I just wears me out. It was our pleasure. We might think I just been working out. The business mine said if you can only have quality or quantity, because when you go through all those list of gods-and you just said you’re right-you know and a minute in a church mode in any business. You can’t have both you not to like or just going for a nap kill or the kill. He let you know you have a huge church that does it right. You have a little bit of church, stop and keep your own house in order, if you’re going to preach to someone else about what they should be doing their life and possibly high standard that is set on ministry. That’s why I applaud you guys I’m pastor jesse? What is another tough question? Maybe last question or two:they have her baby on pastor’s e, non pastor, west, guys I’m, a slob human being right. I would love for you to discuss a proper way for a pastor’s compensation to be set and how someone should determine wow cannon just take whatever they want out of school. What did you see that vanilla middle of the business coaching road and ernie johnson answer? Don’t give me that moderate you want to charles barkley charles barkley ads what everyone in your congregation wants you to make, which is a dollar less than they do the right way to set it? One is still bored or committee that has no interested parties, so no family, no employees working underneath you no conflict of interest in your compensation to important thing. Your biggest tax benefit as a minister is your housing allowance. For clergy housing allowance, it has to be sent in advance or is not effective. You can knock off a huge chunk of your income from income tax. You don’t pay income tax on it. If you do it right in minutes, and there proves right way, how do you set? How much irs says it’s whatever’s reasonable return reason was to buy what similarly-situated pastor making? What are my peers making and not in similar situations. I can be geographic attendance reach your important source of iron in attack. You and you just take you, but you take what your guys are making around you and it’s a group effort as how you send a copy to attack you I’m listening right now and I have 500 members attend my church and I live in dallas. How much should I pay myself and don’t give me money so I have clients to have literally thousands of people coming in el paso that make less money than someone in new york with 500 people coming faithfully typing, so the most important is metric is going to be money and how important you are to church.

Are you the founder or, if you, if we lose you, can we replace you with your blow or not going to skip this business coaching step? Those are the two most important thing, so let’s say 500 people texas low cost of living. You know if you’re making $500,000 years at church, you can probably pull in 60-70 $80,000 and nobody’s going to blink an eye out you’re not going to be any risk with the irs. What are you 7% percent of gross revenue for a church like that? What I’ve been told, unofficially by irs agent? Is that really they don’t start even looking at even question that so you get to about 90 $100,000 a year, cuz they’re gonna have to argue to you with unreasonable for you to support your only on $80,000 a year was in most places. United states is not an argument you can make, does all what’s reasonable, based upon on top of how much your salary or housing your health, your benefits or retirement, because that all of the pot-and we said it’s over clients that we haven’t you that as you get higher and higher, we do compensation study. So I go get all these people that we know across the country see what they’re making compare the most comparable ones to you and I do an opinion letter that protects you and your bored cuz. You have an outside person, sudden it for you. It says you can make up to this amount and the irs won’t mess with you into ministry, obviously, for the money so they’re trying to feed their kids, clothes are kids. Do that megan men make sure that they’re able to have a heart for ministry in the problem I see is that they pour money into the church for 40 years, they’re taking out mortgages to pay for the church and then their health fells them. They are no longer physically able to stay behind the pulpit. The church can’t afford two pastors now. I have a pastor. I can’t take care of so for those pastors I beg them, pay yourself, some money sock it away, take care of yourself because at some point either god’s going to call you to a different ministry or you’re, not going to be physically, be able to stand up and preach every sunday. In the church going to have to pay another pastor to do that, please let them pay you, while you’re still making hay because later on, you’re not going to have anything to live on, and they don’t have the money, then to pay you to keep on living because they’re hiring someone else, and it’s not fair to the congregational church new pastor gets tired of cutting. That check eventually have a problem. If you’re listening right now-and you are a pastor, having worked with many of you, I can tell you this you if you’re, probably nine out of 10 pastors. You definitely are out of somebody having at your picture, while I’m not 9 out of 10.

If you are, if you’re the average pastor your prom under paying yourself and then when you get to the end of the road boyz ii men, what’s going to business coaching happen, is you are going to say? Oh my gosh i, don’t have any money left. Is that you’re going to pay yourself more than it’s prudent right and then you get in a bad spot, so I recommend as an action step right now, I recommend everybody reaches out to winters and king. You guys work with life church put your craig rochelle’s did a great job with his church, so they have their opening new campuses I’m in every month, a new campus church in the country, and so do you have a joyce meyers. Last time I turned on tv. It seems like you can see her her books. I went to target today, best-selling books, I mean you’ve got td. Jakes I mean these are these are the top of the top in terms of most well known for their top of the top ministries r-fla? Could the media, the publicity living rooms & hotel room high school year to sow churches happy is winters and king work with me to give him a project? Last time we counted, we started about 4,500 churches and ministries. Forget it I’ll just encourage use an action step, go to winters and king check out the website, just type in winters and king into google. You’ll find those guys. What’s what’s the phone number to 918-494-6868, 918-494-6868 or winters king.Com, any other tough question. Pastor even run the church for a long time, and you can ask me any question you want to know if it’s super offencive to wes are doctors in the password might want to ask a question. Don’t want to ask this but any question at all? If we hired you for our christmas party, could you start our dance competition? That’s all that’s a challenging question by the way and the facebook on the book of face question, but since i, like you and your husband, so much I would answer that in a positive. Yes, I would pick up business coaching kentucky right now, he’s available now I’m, versatile. Today’s podcast on tomorrow’s podcast. We have more exclusive interviews of pastor jesse I gibson pastor brian gibson from the river city church in owensboro, kentucky church., cc, river, city, church. Cc was that cc stand for what. Cc, that’s kind of what it’s kind of cool I got it. It’s got a big deal. It’s like I left the only em off any further ado 3

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